Have Viewers Changed Too Much?

[TookyG]

Have the viewers changed too much for Star Trek? That's a not so simple question. And I'm curious what you think.

It seems to me that every season that goes by the posts I read on Trek message boards just get more and more hostile towards the show.

I'm sitting here recalling the various series and I can't grasp why people are just so hateful of the shows anymore.

I like Enterprise, Voyager was good too. DS9 gets the least heat of the series while TNG seems to be the overall favorite. In my opinion the first couple seasons of TNG were not that great. It just seems kinda of odd how no one connects Berman taking the reigns of TNG with when it started to get better.

I'm not saying that Berman is the sole reason, or for that matter, a part of the reason that TNG got better. It just seems like people don't want to think about that when Gene took a more back seat role, and Berman stepped up, TNG improved.

I guess it could be the "me too" scenario. The "keeping up with the jones'" if you will. Everyone bashes Trek so others do it too?

I don't know, I guess I'm in the minority that sits down to watch TV and is entertained by the story and not entertained by trashing the story later on the net.

[Ineti]

Originally posted by TookyG
I don't know, I guess I'm in the minority that sits down to watch TV and is entertained by the story and not entertained by trashing the story later on the net.

I think that's the central issue, though. A lot of viewers were entertained by TNG and DS9, and Voyager, and may not be entertained by Enterprise.

I loved TNG, really loved DS9, and wanted to like Voyager. The stories and the cast didn't interest me, though. Same thing with Enterprise. I watched most of the first season, some of the second, and went "Ehh." It didn't hook me, and I didn't see a reason to go back.

[strict31]

When I frequented the boards on the official site, people who liked DS9 were in a significant minority. As were people who preferred TOS over the other shows. This is because they were more females and more young people on those boards. I run the risk of making a generalization by saying this, of course, but from what I've observed, there is merit to it. Different demographic of Trek fans on these boards; very few male gamers there. Of course, this was like two years ago, so I don't know what the landscape on those boards is like now. There were a lot more Enterprise and Voyager fans over there; a lot more people who grew up not with TOS (Or even with TOS in syndication) but rather with TNG. There were fewer military folks and fewer folks in science-related fields.

Here, I've seen threads seriously discussing the use and deployment of Starfleet Marines; never would have seen a thread like that over there. If it was even mentioned, several folks would have pointed out how Starfleet is not a military organization, or something like that, and then an argument about the quality of DS9 would erupt.

In general, people were less concerned about continuity problems over there, for obvious reasons; here, most of us are gamers and campaigns require subject matter that is consistent. Over there, with fewer gamers, that's not much of a concern.

Again, this was two years ago.

But my point, in mentioning all this, is that even though this is a trek board, it has a different demographic of fans than other trek boards may. And our collective interests and opinions about the show are not representative of all trek fans. I don't know if you're basing your statement on what you have seen here, or if you are combining observations from a variety of boards you've visited. But not all trek fans are going to have the same opinions about stuff.

But, as I've said here and on the official site's boards, if a show is written well, the fans will be there. When TNG started out, it wasn't terribly strong. When DS9 started out, it wasn't terribly strong, same with Voyager. I was ready to lambaste Enterprise until someone on those boards pointed out that Trek often started slow before gaining a head of decent steam. So, I was inclined to stop my bitching and give Ent a chance. After all, even though I personally disliked Voyager, it had one or two strong seasons, particularly after Jeri taylor stepped down as executive producer. With Ent, I was really determined to give it a chance, right up until I read an article with Berman and Braga admitting that they had sought a new audience with Ent, and weren't terribly concerned with the negative comments made by the diehard fans. History has shown that Trek lives and dies on the backs of its fans. There would be no Trek without its fans. Period. To hear that a loayal fan base was now secondary to securing an audience with the attention span of a hungry mosquito at a nudist convention was quite distressing. It suddenly became obvious to me why they had changed the opening music; why they had removed "Star Trek" from the title. In short, they took the fans for granted.

That upset me, and I think, if a lot more fans had read that article, they'd feel the same way. So, I stopped giving Enterprise a chance. I would have stopped long before that because the writing was not-so-good. But I'm a trek fan and was determined, at one point, to stick with it.

I think events have shown that B&B did not actually secure the new audience they sought, and that they realized they were in danger of alienating the audience they already had. I think they've made a real effort to improve the writing and the storytelling, that they've tried to apeal to the fans again. So, I've started watching again, and for the most part, I've enjoyed it.

I don't think it's a matter of viewers having changed in any way. We're still the same folks who have always stuck with Star Trek, from TOS to the present. From what I've observed, it is the show that has changed. The vision of the producers has changed. Not the viewers. Young and old, new-jack and O.G., we still want to see good sci-fi with some adventure thrown in for good measure. But the producers tried to appeal to the same audience that thinks Survivor is the height of modern drama; that thinks Paris Hilton is a, embittered and noble heroine instead of a rich twit who doesn't wear panties.

Now, to a large degree, I can empathize with B&B's plight. especially after having seen Joss Whedon forced to end a show that was making his network damned good numbers...some of their best numbers...simply because the network wanted to put on a show to appeal to that survivor audience. They had to change something to make Trek survive, i suppose. Turns out, they're going to try and make it so cheap that the network can't pass it up. Unfortunate, but it's better than the alternative.

But it's not the audience that has changed. Not the viewers. The networks are like a playground, where a bunch of kids see one kid with a new pair of cool shoes. The rest of those kids want to get that pair of shoes, and they tell their parents that they've gotta have 'em. That this is what they need to survive at school. As an audience, we have always been told by the networks, by the studios, by the producers, "this is what you want! Our surveys have proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt! This is what our number show! Suck it down! Love it! Crave it, because this is all you're going to get!"

Well, nobody's ever surveyed me. I've never been asked to particpate in any sort of poll. Have you? If my interests as a viewer have changed, it's because I suddenly find myself craving an alternative to dating shows, to bachelor and bachelorette shows, to millionaire and billionaire-ess shows. To Everwood and Gilmore Girls. I've never had to worry about finding "reality" on my TV before. I've never before found myself, so often, turning the TV off.


Strictly Speaking

[Captain Blake]

Originally posted by TookyG
Have the viewers changed too much for Star Trek? That's a not so simple question. And I'm curious what you think.

It seems to me, in general, people like the very first trek they saw and got into.

I saw TOS mostly in re-runs, and really really liked it. But, I got into Trek in the TNG era (so much so I took my college work study money into the comic store and bought the FASAtrek game). That's when it went beyond something cool to watch when it came on to something approaching an obsession. DS9 was pretty good, Voyager and now Enterprise are just slightly too far off for me to really enjoy.

I'm well aware that there were some dog episodes of TNG, just like there were some dog episodes of TOS, and DS9, and Voyager, and Enterprise.

But, with the later shows, I'm older, and more set in my ways, and less forgiving of those same problems. Of seeing the same things over and over again.

But, for someone who's much younger, everything is new to them, and they still have that sense of wonder about everything.

My sense of wonder needs to be piqued, it doesn't just hang there. Old, bitter, and cynical, am I.

Which is why I liked DS9 and disliked Voyager. DS9 was different, Voyager was more of the same old same old. Enterprise is more of the same.

I liked what I saw of the last season of Enterprise, because it was treklike, and so close enough to be familiar, but different enough to be new and interesting. Of cource, I disagreed with some design decisions (T'pol as crack whore, Archer the space thug), and I don't think the season finale ended correctly (y'know, just once, I'd like to see an aftermath of a victory). But I never threw something at the tv and turned off the series, like with Voyager.

So, yes, the core audience is changing. And, it seems like TPTB at trek are trying to relive the same old same old.

They are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they change things too much, people will complain and tune out. If they don't change things enough, people will get bored and tune out.

Unfortunately, most people want to be entertained without thinking. They get reality shows. I want to be entertained while thinking. That's why I watch/ed Star Trek.

Just being entertained isn't enough anymore.

Alex

[Scottomir]

The STAR TREK viewers have changed: they've gotten older. My buds and I are now in our early 30s. A dozen years ago, when TNG was flying at its height, we never would have dreamed of missing an episode. We'd have left our mothers' death-beds to watch it. But as people get older, life demands change. Now it is even a bother to find the time to set the VCR if I know I will miss an episode, and my buds have a watch-it-or-not attitude based simply on whether or not they happen to be home when it airs. Maybe some fans can maintain active attention to ST as the years pass, but I contend that many of us simply don't watch as much TV as we used to, and so ST is a casualty of this reduction.

That said, I think a case can be made for a palpable decline in the inventiveness and quality of the ST franchise. TNG got off to a rocky start, it is true: arguably its greatest weakness at first was that it piggy-backed on already-told sci-fi stories. TNG was at its best when it was giving us new idea, new sci-elements, new stories. And TNG flourished when it gave us compelling, even moving character development. This, too, is true of the ST movies. Sure, there have always been bad ST movies, but up through ST VI the good movies were good because they made us care about the characters and tied this development into an interesting story (yeah, I think VI cheapened the ending, but otherwise I cared about it). DS9 was in many ways the most character-driven series with the most dramatic internal character development; for this reason I can understand why a core group of fans laud DS9 as the "best" Trek.

ST:V, ENT, and the more recent movies have forgotten these lessons. ST:V gave us easily the most static and unchanging characters in all of Trek. To wit, I find it hard enough to believe that Janeway would make poor Kim remain an ensign for seven years without a field promotion, but it is ludicrous that he should remain so happy about it. Likewise, the most interesting social dynamic in early ST:V, Starfleet vs. Maquis, was dismissed all too quickly and touched upon thereafter only lightly, sporadically, and in gimmicky ways. The characters on ENT are less static (Trip, T'Pol, and Archer really do seem to be changing), but in one way ENT is even worse than ST:V -- the characters are mostly props. I've watched most of ENT these past three seasons, and until recently I still couldn't remember some character's names (what's Hoshi's last name? what's the helmsman's name period??). ST:V and ENT, additionally, are not giving us much in the way of new ideas and sci-fi elements, and for that reason they are demonstrably weaker than TNG, DS9, or even TOS.

Of course, this could be a function of a bloated universe of sci-fi. Has every good idea already been used? Has every new story already been told? If so, this is a far graver problem for ST than changes in its viewership.

[strict31]

People put too much emphasis on the worth of new ideas. I don't mind an old idea or concept as long as it is written well and entertains me. Star Trek hasn't been "new" in ages. That hardly matters to me. Just make it good.


Strictly Speaking

[Kaiddin]

Originally posted by strict31
To Everwood and Gilmore Girls.

I hope you are not suggesting that Everwood and Gilmore Girls are bad shows!! Granted each show has some characters that could be eliminated but they deserve to be in the top 20.

I don't think there is any other show that has dialogue like GG.

[strict31]

Originally posted by Kaiddin
I hope you are not suggesting that Everwood and Gilmore Girls are bad shows!! Granted each show has some characters that could be eliminated but they deserve to be in the top 20.

I don't think there is any other show that has dialogue like GG.

Kaiddin my man, I suggest nothing. I give those two shows the official Strict "Bah!" I won't insult you by saying one of those lines like "No offense but" or "It's just my opinion but" . They don't entertain the Strict. Thus, I crave an alternative to them and to the numerous clones of them.


Strictly Speaking

[REG]

Hah! The alternative to Gilmore Girls is ... Hope and Faith. Honestly, you want more of ... those?

[strict31]

I know not of this "Hope and Faith" of which you speak. If it's more of the same, that is not an alternative to me. Kaiddin mentioned eliminating people. That would be a grand start. Like, some executions on the show. I suppose it would be out of place, what with the blood and severed heads and that, but that's okay. Could work on Survivor, too. Make it "Survivor for Real"...


Strictly Speaking

[ComaBoy]

Originally posted by Kaiddin
I hope you are not suggesting that Everwood and Gilmore Girls are bad shows!! Granted each show has some characters that could be eliminated but they deserve to be in the top 20.

I don't think there is any other show that has dialogue like GG.

Some may cringe at the suggestion but the Whedon products ( Buffy , Angel and Firefly ) also have some sharp, smart writing. I greatly enjoy well written dialogue but it's not easy to find.

As to the original question, audiences have definitely changed. The pacing of current TV is much faster while, in some cases, maintaining story complexity. If anyone out there has an old video tape of a program from 15 years ago, you might be able to see what I'm talking about.

[Kaiddin]

Originally posted by ComaBoy
Some may cringe at the suggestion but the Whedon products ( Buffy , Angel and Firefly ) also have some sharp, smart writing. I greatly enjoy well written dialogue but it's not easy to find.

Are they not all cancelled? If they were still being made I would have included Buffy and Firefly in the list of better shows on TV.

Originally posted by strict31
They don't entertain the Strict.

I'll give you that. As long as you do not suggest they are bad shows. Bad shows are like The Simple Life, Reba, Everyone Loves Raymond and Two & a Half Men .

Originally posted by REG
The alternative to Gilmore Girls is ... Hope and Faith. Honestly, you want more of ... those?

Right! A well written, well acted series with one or two characters that need to be written out and its opposite, a pedantically written series, poorly acted with only one character worth keeping.
Well Maybe just the actress. I agree they are like night and day.

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

The show has changed not the fans.

I'm probably more a third generation trekker. I started watching the show when TNG was still in its infancy. At the same time I watched on Sunday's the TOS re-runs and overall preferred TOS to TNG, because of the stories (and the ridiculous costumes, meh, I was young ).

By the time DS9 came along, I really only watched the first 3-4 seasons religiously and the rest off and on although the stories did get pretty interesting at the end. I watch shows for the characters and the dialogue. That's why I liked Firefly, fantastic dialogue with characters I cared about. Whether it was the Trinity of Kirk/Spock/Bones or the TNG Geordi-Data relationship; I cared most about the characters. In DS9 I liked Odo and Quark, that relationship was interesting to me. I also liked Bashir and Garak. Overall the Garak character was probably the reason I enjoyed DS9 so much.

Then came VOY...well I didn't like VOY at first, I'm sure a thread search will show my opinion on it. I hated Janeway (and still do), but liked some of the other characters. I couldn't get over the fact that the dialogue was weak. Except for the Doc's (few) moments the show lacked some of the in-depth view like the other series. The Neelix character had alot of potential and is early use was fine, but later I found he no longer served any purpose except for comic relief. As the series went on, the Doc started to turn into some sort of holo-activist...how I loathed that...In the end though, when I look back, they had some great memorable moments along with some great episodes. All in all, not bad.

As for ENT, I can't get over the fact that StarTrek was taken out of the name and the new beginning music. I'm still stuck on that. The show had some nice moments up to now, and then again, some glaring canon mistakes. The show appeals to a new crowd, more action, less talk, more action, more skin...and more action. The show stopped being being of the same mold as TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY.

I like Trek, and I hope some new life will be breathed into it. There is potential.

Just my opinion though, my uneducated and pointless opinion.

[strict31]

Originally posted by Kaiddin
I'll give you that. As long as you do not suggest they are bad shows. Bad shows are like The Simple Life, Reba, Everyone Loves Raymond and Two & a Half Men .

Okay. As long as you do not infer that I'm not entitled to my opinion about the quality of these shows or what I like to watch...


Strictly Speaking

[Kaiddin]

Originally posted by strict31
Okay. As long as you do not infer that I'm not entitled to my opinion about the quality of these shows or what I like to watch...


Strictly Speaking

Hey, I'm Canadian! Our Prime Minister has said that if you don't agree with him you're UnCanadian. So if it is good enough for him..... Naw, I'd rather just respect your opinion.