Inquiring minds would like to know

[Captain Novaes]

The corebook pretty well states that "long gone are the days when Men or Elves could grapple with the Darklord", hence no stats for Sauron. However, the Fellowship sourcebook gives stats for Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur, who DID engage the Lord of the Rings up close and personal. So why not provide stats for him?

[Scottomir]

Well, look at what happened to Gil-galad and Elendil for their troubles. And, contrary to Peter Jackson, all we know for certain from Tolkien's text is that Isildur used the hilts of his father's sword to cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, not necessarily that he struck the deathblow. Thus, it is fair to say that by the Third Age no-one could grapple with the Dark Lord and live to see their stats increased.

[Captain Novaes]

Isildur did claim he struck the death-blow (according to Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion). Anyway, Sauron was "dead" by the time Isildur used the shards of Narsil to cut the One Ring. So at least to me this means three "statable" characters did defeat the Darklord.

So the question stands: why no stats for Sauron? Fear of reducing the terror of the Enemy to a collection of numbers?

[Meneltin]

Fear of reducing the terror of the Enemy to a collection of numbers?

Yes, I think that is a major reason. Besides the fact that the current Coda system is not very wel suited to very high level characters, no matter what Sauron's stats are it will never be good enough for most. There is plenty of discussion about Balrogs already.

Besides, it provides a convenient argument for the Narrator.

[Ineti]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes
However, the Fellowship sourcebook gives stats for Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur, who DID engage the Lord of the Rings up close and personal. So why not provide stats for him?

I imagine it's because Decipher's game is focused on the Third Age, where Sauron was effectively untouchable.

[Captain Novaes]

Originally posted by Ineti
I imagine it's because Decipher's game is focused on the Third Age, where Sauron was effectively untouchable.

Then why provide (however arguably inflated) stats for the Big Three heroes of the Second Age? But we don't even need to go there; Aragorn was able to win Sauron in a direct confrontation of Wills in the struggle for the Palantír. Conversely, the published stats for dragons show Willpower ratings of +11 or more. Aragorn would be hard-pressed to wrestle control of the Palantír from one of those. Does this say Sauron is more weak-willed than a worm of Morgoth?

Originally posted by Meneltin
Yes, I think that is a major reason. Besides the fact that the current Coda system is not very wel suited to very high level characters, no matter what Sauron's stats are it will never be good enough for most. There is plenty of discussion about Balrogs already.

Really? Could you point me towards that discussion?

About CODA and high-level characters: I think you hit the nail pretty on the head. The corebook implies Sauron is so very far above the ordinary PC it is impossible to cover him in the rules. I tried to stat out the Darklord during the Second Age and I think I reached a good compromise. He is still lethal enough most advanced PCs will die just by annoying him, but weak enough that a party of six to eight high-Advancement could challenge him head-on and have a hope of lasting a few rounds -- especially if half of them are Noldor from Valinor.

Without the One Ring, my version of Sauron is still a nigh-insurmontable foe, but he'd better use his social skills instead of force against a big Dragon or a greater Balrog.

Please do not consider me a twink or somesuch. I just do not believe in un-statable NPCs that nevertheless can be challenged and vanquished :-)

[Meneltin]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes

Really? Could you point me towards that discussion?

It's on Decipher's new boards right here:

Originally posted by Captain Novaes

especially if half of them are Noldor from Valinor.

Or arrogant Numenorean warlords?

Originally posted by Captain Novaes

Please do not consider me a twink or somesuch. I just do not believe in un-statable NPCs that nevertheless can be challenged and vanquished :-)

Yes I think it can be done as well, the Coda system might need a few tweaks to keep it as Tolkienesque as the Third Age. Perhaps something similar to the Legendary attributes, but then for a higher level?

[Ineti]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes
Please do not consider me a twink or somesuch. I just do not believe in un-statable NPCs that nevertheless can be challenged and vanquished :-)

That's the thing, though. Sauron in the Third Age isn't challengable on a face-to-face basis and was only vanquished through indirect means.

[Captain Novaes]

It has been my impression that Sauron doesn't get personally involved in affairs during the Third Age simply because... he got wiser!

Every other time when he tried to personally handle matters involving combat he bit the dust. In the Third Age, without the Ring, he's all the more careful.

That is not to say there was anyone around who could indeed challenge him. Gandalf the White would be a tough costumer, as would a team composed of Aragorn, Glorfindel, Galadriel and perhaps Faramir or Boromir.

In the end, I see everyone of these failing without some form of direct assistance from the West, but they'd at least present a challenge. Of course I'm talking strenghts here, not necessarily willingness.

And finnally... just because an opponent is too tough for anyone to handle, it doesn't mean he's un-statable.

[Captain Novaes]

Originally posted by Meneltin
It's on Decipher's new boards right here:



Or arrogant Numenorean warlords?

Thanks for the URL! Funny discussion, that...

Anyway. Not arrogant, but yes -- half the party were Noldor from Valinor (of the Host of Gil-galad) and half númenórean lords

Originally posted by Meneltin

Yes I think it can be done as well, the Coda system might need a few tweaks to keep it as Tolkienesque as the Third Age. Perhaps something similar to the Legendary attributes, but then for a higher level?

Well... it depends on what you consider a Legendary attribute for a Maia who doensn't refrain himself as a Istari would, for example. Dragons have pretty high Wits scores but I do not consider them "Legendary" -- at least not in the perspective of Dragons! Ancalagon, Glaurung, Gothmog the Balrog... these would be held in awe by their peers.

My version of Sauron has pretty high mental attributes and two really off-the-scale skill ratings (Intimidate and Craft Rings of Power, to wit), but that's it. The rest comes in packages of special racial abilities.