Mind Melds

[adza]

In a recent game, my Vulcan science officer Sortek nerve pinched an Andorian operative of the Orion syndicate, then inititiated a mind meld in an attempt to gain information to help a fellow crew member and to gain intelligence on the operations of the syndicate. Our Narrator had no problem with this, since Spock and Tuvok have both done this.

However, it occurs to me that this may be unfair. By knocking him out, i negated any option of a Willpower reaction, since you have to actively resist to block it. Also, Telepathy, Empathy and Mind Control all require consciousness to be effective (try reading someones surface thoughts when they DON"T HAVE surface thoughts), whilst mind meld accesses memories, which does not require consciousness.

Any thoughts, it just seems strange to me, and it means i don't have to pump any advancements into mind meld, since i can just knock them out.

[Phoenix]

And now you know why both Spock and Tuvok did it, why waist your energy on a resistant target.

[Sea Tyger]

Yeah, I think it's a non-issue, really. Vulcans don't have to be "fair," just logical. If the information is extremely important and time is of the essence, logic could dictate that rendering the subject unconscious is necessary.

Of course, you also have to consider the dramatic importance of the situation, and a good Narrator would give out extra experience for characters who enhanced the drama of the episode/encounter (like Spock's interrogation of Valeris in ST VI).

[Ergi]

Who said that it would be easier to extract information from an unconscious or sleeping subject. Of course, active attempts to stop the invader, like using the mind shield skill, won't be possible, but trying to find certain memories could be difficult. The target would know how to access his own memories, therefore the melded personality would know it as well.
Now, in your case, the only person knowing where to find specific information cannot be of any help. Imagine trying to find a book in a huge library without any librarians or book signatures.
Besides, mind melding with an unconscious individual might even be dangerous. Who knows what lurks inside the unconscious mind.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by adza
In a recent game, my Vulcan science officer Sortek nerve pinched an Andorian operative of the Orion syndicate, then inititiated a mind meld in an attempt to gain information to help a fellow crew member and to gain intelligence on the operations of the syndicate. Our Narrator had no problem with this, since Spock and Tuvok have both done this.

However, it occurs to me that this may be unfair. By knocking him out, i negated any option of a Willpower reaction, since you have to actively resist to block it. Also, Telepathy, Empathy and Mind Control all require consciousness to be effective (try reading someones surface thoughts when they DON"T HAVE surface thoughts), whilst mind meld accesses memories, which does not require consciousness.

Any thoughts, it just seems strange to me, and it means i don't have to pump any advancements into mind meld, since i can just knock them out.

Actually, awake or asleep, I would still allow a Willpower test to resist, as this could just be the mind's inherent strength blocking the telepath out of reflex. I mean, even when you're asleep, if someone pokes you with a pin, you reflexively jerk away. Why would it be different for psionic abilities?

[Ergi]

Originally posted by Doug Burke
Actually, awake or asleep, I would still allow a Willpower test to resist, as this could just be the mind's inherent strength blocking the telepath out of reflex. I mean, even when you're asleep, if someone pokes you with a pin, you reflexively jerk away. Why would it be different for psionic abilities?

Since psionics probably represent one of the latest evolutionary steps in the psionic species of Star Trek those functions will probably be located, or at least greatly influenced by activity, in the neocortex, or its equivalent (i.e. the parts of the brain that developed after those areas responsible for the body's basic functions, like breathing, movement, (primitive) perception, ... Among these primitive functions are reflexes. Anyway, what's important is that psi powers depent on conscious activity of the neocortex. While you are asleep, however, the neocortex is more or less doing what it wants, its activity is beyond your control. Therefore it seems unlikely to me that an activity requiring so much mental control as psionic skills will be possible.

[Tobian]

Hmm this is an interesting conundrum!

Personally I would say that if you mind meld to an unconsceous person you mind meld to their unconsceous mind

Seriosuly though, if you are not consceous and especially dreaming, you do not know it, and neither do you know that obviously errant, wrong, misplaced information is wrong so therefore neither would your mind melder!

Usually when people have went into people's unconscious minds, it's been a dangerous and frightening place because it is NOT their consceous mind.

Often times I have noticed that when I dream I visit locations I am familiar with, but which have a completelly differtent layout than they do in the real world. The Iconography becomes confused, the people and faces change and become indeterminate and most importantly - I accept these as normal! I often even dream the same odd floor layout each time I dream about it, yet wake thinking, knowing it's wrong, but it seems right in my dream.

Usually speaking during times when people have been unconsceously melded to people - such as when Deanna melded to her mother in Dark page, or when Janeway was melded to Tuvok etc it was for theraputic reasons - because the unconsceous mind was dwelling on the issue at hand, therefore allowing the mind melder to aid his ward, by helping them through their problem.

To get factual information out of someone unconsceous however I think would be virtually impossible.

I also agree with Doug. If someone is trying to probe into someone elses memories, then they would likelly be able to resist in their unconsceous state as much as their consceous, and personally I believe it should actually be allot harder because the unconsceous mental landscape is far harder to interpret. Remember its not the higher mind, it's the primitive brain!

[Karg]

Originally posted by Tobian
Hmm this is an interesting conundrum!

Usually speaking during times when people have been unconsceously melded to people - such as when Deanna melded to her mother in Dark page, or when Janeway was melded to Tuvok etc it was for theraputic reasons - because the unconsceous mind was dwelling on the issue at hand, therefore allowing the mind melder to aid his ward, by helping them through their problem.

To get factual information out of someone unconsceous however I think would be virtually impossible.

I also agree with Doug. If someone is trying to probe into someone elses memories, then they would likelly be able to resist in their unconsceous state as much as their consceous, and personally I believe it should actually be allot harder because the unconsceous mental landscape is far harder to interpret. Remember its not the higher mind, it's the primitive brain!

This is a good point and I would have to say as a narrator, someone Melding with an unconcious mind will have a more difficult time finding information unless the info being looked for is weighing heavely on the subjects mind.

[Tobian]

I think in many ways this is preciselly the justification for having high ranks in a skill such as mind meld. Anyone with a good bit of luck and a low skill could wrangle with someone's willpower to fight them for what that person is desperatwelly trying to hide - this is exactly how a Mind meld would work. Someone with a high Willpower (especially Cardassians who are trained to resist mental probing) will fight for access of that information in their mind. Converselly however as was shown with Deanna (and spock when dealing with something alien) reading the thoughts of an alien can be difficult and painful unless you are trained to deal with that sort of scenario. (thereby raising the dificulty number when dealing with very alien minds)

Equally I would class a subconsceous mind to be the same as an alien mind, because you would be dealing with interpretive images, not reading the thoughts directly from the higher mind. The reason why mind meld works so well is because it can use the subjects OWN mind to find the information they require, as they know where to find it, without that facility they have to find the memory on their own, which if you think about it would be a far harder prospect.

I do agree that if someone had the information in their mind at the time and were in a state simmilar to REM sleep, then a trained individual could pick out the metaphores and symbolism and make sense out of the bizare mental landscape. Therefore I would say anyone trying to do this should really have a mind meld ability of 5 or 6, regardless of advantage or attribute modifiers!

[GandalfOfBorg]

Yes the unconcscious mind is a turbulent place. Recall the episode of where Lwaxana Troi went into a weird psi coma and Deanna went in to probe her mind... it was no piece of cake or a walk in the park. And then there was the psionic rapist too.

[Sho-sa Kurita]

I'm pretty much with Tobian. In addition I would assert that someone dropped into unconsciousness by a nerve pinch (as opposed to damage, coma, etc.) has a chance to wake up during every round of a meld instead of waiting for the stun to run it's course.

[Ergi]

Careful! This would make the mind meld the players' first choice for reviving comatose crewmates or prisoners. Besides, there's no on-screen evidence for that.

[Tobian]

The person waking up or not wouldn't really be that relevant or in fact observeable onscreen, because they are in a mind meld and more or less helpless (which despite the fact that the Vulcans always say 'your mind to my mind our minds become one' etc it's clear that the Vulcan is almost always in control!) for the duration.

I also agree that someone knocked under by a nerve pinch could come round because no real damage was done by it. Someone probing round their mind could trigger consciousness, and despite the rules we have no real onscreen evidence of how long people go under when they get nerve pinched as it's usually in combat.. and then they run away / bundle them into a cupboard and bind and gag them type of thing etc..

It's not stated but generally speaking I would say a Vulcan could also probably un-nerve-pinch someone if they wanted too, especially when inside a mind meld - because the level of skill involved in pressing the correct nerve plexuses should work in reverse.. and if they can get it up to level 12 I would say they can do the Xena thing LOL

[Sho-sa Kurita]

Originally posted by Ergi
Careful! This would make the mind meld the players' first choice for reviving comatose crewmates or prisoners. Besides, there's no on-screen evidence for that.

There's also no on-screen evidence against it Notice I was applying this idea only to cases where the nerve pinch was the reason for unconsciousness in the first place.

Originally posted by Tobian
The person waking up or not wouldn't really be that relevant or in fact observeable onscreen, because they are in a mind meld and more or less helpless (which despite the fact that the Vulcans always say 'your mind to my mind our minds become one' etc it's clear that the Vulcan is almost always in control!) for the duration.

Originally posted by Tobian
Equally I would class a subconsceous mind to be the same as an alien mind, because you would be dealing with interpretive images, not reading the thoughts directly from the higher mind.

But when awakened, the mind would no longer be alien (unless it really was ), but rather back to its normal state, which might actually make things easier! Also, I'm not sure why you'd think it wasn't noticeable, Kirk in ST:III, as well as Spock and Valeris in ST:VI were melded with their eyes open, so a person awakening might or might not open their eyes. The only reason for the closed eyes is a matter of concentration.

** several edits 'cuz I'm daft today **

[jkp1187]

I had a similar situation come up in a current mission. My solution was that, given the NPC was unconscious, a mind-meld could proceed without a willpower roll. However, a mind shield is different, and is a more passive thing that is always present regardless of consciousness.

I added a different twist, though: given the secrecy with which Vulcans treat the subject (and the fact that, per "Enterprise", not all Vulcans have the ability and some even view it with suspicion, at least in the early days,) such a course of action would be viewed as a breach of psionic ethics. If word of these actions gets out, the character conducting the meld could be subject to punishment by Vulcan authorities, and treated as a moral criminal by the average Vulcan-on-the-street. So if the Vulcans go around neck pinching and melding, there should be serious social and/or legal consequences....though if it only happens once in a long while when life on a planetary scale is at stake, a blind eye might be turned to these activities.

As for Spock, remember that despite his seemingly uptight demenor, as far as Vulcans were concerned, he was a bit of an outcast and renegade....