Attributes beyond 12?

[Uruz]

Hello,

There is specific mention in the blue book that skills have a hard cap at 12 levels. I can't find a similar rule for attributes. Also, the chart showing attribute bonuses goes far beyond 12/13.

Can you raise an attribute above 12 with Advancement Picks?

Thanks,

[RaconteurX]

The only attributes which can exceed 12 are those for which the character gains a racial bonus. Thus, a racial bonus of +2 means the attribute in question can be raised to a maximum of 14. The table includes as high a range as it does to account for creatures which may have extremely high scores.

[Uruz]

Can you cite where that's in the rules, so I can show my players?

[Sho-sa Kurita]

p.78, second column, just over halfway through that first paragraph, it says "Your maximum level in any attribute is 12 plus your species bonuses where applicable; your minimum attribute level is 1 (regardless of species attribute penalties)."

[Uruz]

Thanks.

edit: May I ask, then, what the purpose is of favored attributes? Most of my players with Intellect-based characters chose to maximize their Intellect in character generation (as I used the points method) and now I get to tell them that they'll never get any better.

[Doug Burke]

Favored Attributes are less expensive to advance.

[Uruz]

Of course, but my point is, you can have a 12 in your most important attribute from the beginning. Thus, it being a favored attribute means nothing.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Uruz
Of course, but my point is, you can have a 12 in your most important attribute from the beginning. Thus, it being a favored attribute means nothing.

Honestly, that logic doesn't necessarily follow. Just because Favored Attributes don't affect one possible situation doesn't mean they do nothing. The player, by choosing to have his attribute at the maximum level to begin with in a way hobbles himself by removing the effectiveness of the Favored status. Fvaored Atributes were intended to encourage character growth in a direction consistent with the profession chosen.

Another thing to consider is that the LOTR game introduce the idea of surpassing the normal attribute maximum for Favored Attributes, and that could quite easily be incorporated in Trek.

[Uruz]

Originally posted by Doug Burke
Honestly, that logic doesn't necessarily follow. Just because Favored Attributes don't affect one possible situation doesn't mean they do nothing. The player, by choosing to have his attribute at the maximum level to begin with in a way hobbles himself by removing the effectiveness of the Favored status. Fvaored Atributes were intended to encourage character growth in a direction consistent with the profession chosen.

Right, but by capping their ability to raise that attribute, then you either maximize that attribute from character generation and effectively lose a favored attribute, or you choose not to maximize it in the interest of being able to raise it later (?) and you are not as good with skills and reactions involving that attribute.

Another thing to consider is that the LOTR game introduce the idea of surpassing the normal attribute maximum for Favored Attributes, and that could quite easily be incorporated in Trek.

Excellent. I think this is a happy compromise. I don't suppose it would be too OT to discuss this rule? How far can the favored attribute be raised beyond cap, or is there no limit?

Also, introducing a house rule system of Edges in order to raise attributes beyond 12 seems to be in order. "Exceptional Strength", "Exceptional Intellect", etc. It requires more Advancement Pick investment, but facilitates continued character growth.

[Tobian]

I think that it's easy to come up against walls like this when using any system, and it's, as always, a problem with the players and not the system! They are basically complaining because their favourite attribute is maxed out???!!! Err hello, that means they are a GENIUS at it, so what's the problem? You shouldn't really pander to the players too much and be TOO nice because it opens up to future abuses. The point in having a cap on the skills and attributes is that so they can't unballance the gaming system. Because of the way in which you upgrade your stats and skills in this system isn't related to the level it's currently at (such as White Wolf) it means they could indefinatelly add to it and easilly accomplish any task for which it applies.

You'll be making more of a problem for yourself by alowing them to raise itbecause then they will start outstripping the Tn's before they roll their dice. If you remove the risk because you CAN'T fail then why bother playing.. "Ok guys you all win.. Ok so who's running the next game then?"

[Uruz]

You make the assumption that my players are twinks, Tobain. While you might have that problem, I certainly don't.

[Tobian]

I'm not making the assumption that your players are twinks, I am saying that you should not lightly take out the checks and ballances in ANY game system for ANY type of player because it removes game ballance.

I know Decipher are not always people's favourite gaming company but they will have playtested this system and they have oviously worked out it needs to be capped at that level. I also don't really follow that the player is in some way disadvantaged by having been lucky enough to roll ANY double sixes during character creation?

[Uruz]

We didn't roll dice for attributes. That's a really archaic way to make a character, and you shouldn't be rewarded just because you happened to be lucky. Points assignment is the way to go.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Uruz
Right, but by capping their ability to raise that attribute, then you either maximize that attribute from character generation and effectively lose a favored attribute, or you choose not to maximize it in the interest of being able to raise it later (?) and you are not as good with skills and reactions involving that attribute.

You can always increase the skills and reactions. Which is cheaper than increasing the Attribute anyway...

Excellent. I think this is a happy compromise. I don't suppose it would be too OT to discuss this rule? How far can the favored attribute be raised beyond cap, or is there no limit?

I wouldn't think it off-topic, but that may not be my call. The most the rules allow is an additional level in the Attribute, and there are other in-game considerations as well. See "The Mightest of Heroes" on page 24 of the Two Towers Sourcebook for the full writeup.

Also, introducing a house rule system of Edges in order to raise attributes beyond 12 seems to be in order. "Exceptional Strength", "Exceptional Intellect", etc. It requires more Advancement Pick investment, but facilitates continued character growth.

Sounds like a viable alternative as well. Each instance of the Edgeallows the character to purchase one more level of the specified attribute. Personally, I'd limit it to a mximum of one or two times per attribute, and tack on a Renown or Promotion level requirement as well...

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Uruz
We didn't roll dice for attributes. That's a really archaic way to make a character, and you shouldn't be rewarded just because you happened to be lucky. Points assignment is the way to go.

Archaic? Huh. Personally, I prefer it because it adds a random element you have to adjust for to the process. But maybe I'm just old...