Please keep the political ban in place

[KillerWhale]

Mods, I'm sorry to reopen the subject (if it goes out of hand, please lock it at the first sign of trouble)

I wanted to ask to you to please keep the political ban in place. And for a simple reason: these boards are international in nature, but because of the language barrier, and the show concerned, most people here are American or English.

And it's no mystery that American and English people, in their majority, mostly support a certain view of the world. While it is their absolute right to do so, the minority who disagrees has to face an endless stream of threads bashing their own view of the world, and because of numbers alone, they cannot answer to everything, or find articles on everything (that would need too much energy). Soon discouragement, disinterest and anger creep in.

Allowing political threads is the best way to force tired members out, and reduce posting to only the political areas. Which, I think, is not what a Trek RPG board intends. Have a look at the FBR: 80% of the activity goes into the Political section.

Please keep this place as it was intended: a home for everyone wanting to discuss Trek and RPGs, with the occasional fun thread; not a political arena with a pretense on TrekRPGing.

[Phoenix]

As an American, I agree with Killerwhale. I'd like to keep the primary subject material as Trek, that's why I come here.

[BouncyCaitian]

As person who saw it coming...and get more than a bit irate myslef and am guilty of going too far....I agree whole heartedly with KW on this one

[Tobian]

I think a distinction needs to be drawn here, or at least how I see it..

There should be a fine line between talking about politics in a mechanical and granular sense: As has been discussed previously, it would be nice to be able to talk about historical issues and political mechanics for the sole purposes of games... and modern political bashing.

I think it goes against the intended nature of the site to bring in modern political dogma, ethics, and current greivances to the table. No member should feel upset, as KW did by being outnumbered by one side of the argument, and having his culture dragged down through the mud. poking a little fun at some silly legistlation is one thing, but drawing in CURRENT arguments is another entirelly, because it deliberatelly goads people into making personal attacks back.. attaking someone's culture and beliefs can do that!

What I am trying to say is basically we should refrain from discussing modern politics, and drawing into subjects such as the current war on terror etc.

Purelly from a GM perspective I would prefer to never run material based on a current war, because it's too new, to fresh and too much of a sore point for everyone.. It's not going to happen for me, but imagine a scenario where a player had recently lost a loved one to that war, and then you bring it into your startrek campaign.. Roleplaying is for escapism, not to drag you into the now. There is more than enough history and Startrek history to mine for ideas without brushing so close to the present. I don't see a need for it, so I don't see a point in discussing that.

My apology to the moderators if you believe I talked 'politics' but it need to be said, and yes KW, I support your standpoint, to that extent,and i hope that I didn't contribute to your problems myself.

[KillerWhale]

You raise an issue that I too find myself wondering about. We've all said one time or another that Trek and politics are deeply intertwined and yet, as a group, we fail to mirror IDIC.

I think some balance can be found - as you said, Trek is generally based on modern issues - not necessarily political in the strictest sense - as all SF with ethical issues does.

I remember a historian (quite biased but interesting nonetheless) who once told me: "A good economist reacts today to foresee tomorrow as well as he can, based on his mistaken interpretation of yesterday. A good historian understands why the economist was wrong in his interpretation of yesterday a 100 years ago." I don't say she's right but that casts some light on the issue of historical value of events when you're deep down in them, as we are.

Maybe "politics" could be discussed when they are no longer politics but history, and contemporary references could be forbidden. I honestly don't know. Maybe that would be too difficult to monitor and enforce. And the line would have to be drawn.

Given the contemporary climate, I even doubt this could calm things. History has a much different taste today that it did 10 years ago.

[Tobian]

History is history, you can't chage it, it's just people chose to place an emphasis on what they want to use to support whatever claim they want, to the point it's very had to pick apart the facts from the truth, bewcause so much has been written about it.. history is very.. political It's about taking sides and sticking to your guns depsite the best evidence to the contrary, and opinions change very slowly on it.. It's exactly the same way science goes, the universe hasn't radically changed in the last 2000 years, it's just our understanding of it has, and we keep changing our minds about just what shape it is, because we can't see the whole picture at any one time...

However in exactly the same way Things which have long been settled tend not to stirr up much feeling, and while people may debate an battle, it's not as personal as where current events are concerned. People don't generally still argue that the world is flat, and that the Sun goes around the earth.. the notion of the debat teaches people how the scientific method works.. In the same way people can generally talk about historic battles, like Waterloo, and analyse the military strategies, as a tool to understanding the thinking process in the past, without getting into a heated debate about who was right.

In much the same way Startrek has often been likened to various historical events, as have many other Sci-Fi's and fantasies, because they are both an analogy of us and our world, and a tool for understanding ourselves without the framework of national associations to let us hang our preconceptions on. it teaches us how to think and how to go against the mainstream.

Discussing, therefore, the tactics and ethics of the napoleonic wars, as a model for basing a campaign for your startrek game MIGHT cause a heated debate, as various people throw their oar into the mix, there are plenty of well documented and acnowledged WELL BALLANCED historical records of the time to help settle the arguments.. With modern politics so much has yet to come out in the wash, it's all to fresh and people are seeing it only from the limited tabloid information they have available. You can't have any sort of accurate moratorium on any CURRENT war, because it's not finished yet, all we have to go on is tabloid rhetoric and countries sending snipingcomments to one another, you can't be objective about it, and really it's hard to see what use it is for our site, becaue next week the whole situation will change!

it's exactly the same reason I am wary to include anything from Enterprise, not because I dislike the series, or because of any of the Treknical issues, but because if I use facts from the show, and then next week something comes allong to change everything, then it's impossible to use, unless i am of course running a pre or current set of adventures, then i could hook allong for the ride

[Uruz]

This forum has always been about Trek. I'd prefer that it remain that way.

[Eric R.]

But yet for almost 5 years we had political debates with our Trek and it all went alright.

And that well be all I say on this folks.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

I wholeheartedly agree. With keeping the ban in place.

However, as an Englishman residing in Scotland, I take some offense at the erroneus suggestion that the English are all mindlessly following where America leads. That is very much not the case, and if you bothered to find out you'd know that the majority are quite assuredly not in support of the war in Iraq.

I know you don't mean offense, and I don't require an apology, but I would ask that in future you be a bit less sweeping in your assumptions.

[KillerWhale]

I never meant that that's why I was (or I thought I was) very careful in my choice of words:

it's no mystery that American and English people, in their majority, mostly support a certain view of the world.

I've been very careful in saying "the majority" and "a certain view of the world" (which view?! ). I don't know if I could have been more general.

Okay. Maybe the word "majority" was careless. I meant "the majority of American or English people currently vocal on political issues on both boards". Which is totally different.

But I never suggested that England was blindly following the lead of America. You are reading me wrong, but let's put the issue at rest.

It would be nice if we could all read only what the others write (and I suppose I'm guilty as charged).

So I know you don't want an apology, but I still would like to offer one, because the last thing I wanted was to offend anybody.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Ah forget it, no harm done.

I did mean to mention though, that England does not equal the UK.

Anyway, I agree completely that the political ban should stay in place. Seperate forum or not, you can't avoid it no matter how hard you try. And politics is not why this place is here, IMO.

[KillerWhale]

I did mean to mention though, that England does not equal the UK.

Oh you're right, of course!!! Sorry about that.

If my English grandmother read me, she would phaserize me on the spot!

[Tobian]

The whole UK - GB - England thing confuses the hell out of everyone !

it is technically the United kingdom OF Great Britain - composing of England Scotland Wales and (currently with joint leadership with Ireland) Northern Ireland.. Of ourse depending on how far you want to go back you can start dividing it up indefinatelly.

I get really cheesed off because we've become overly PC about it. On your passport you are NOT allowed to write England as your country of Birth, and yet you can write Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales???

Well I'm English and proud of it!

Well ok my great grandfather was scotish... ok and my great drandfather on the other side was Welsh, yeah and my great 5 times removed grandmother was a French countess who eloped with a Cornish Fisherman, but well I am English

[tmutant]

I agree with keeping the ban in place. "Don't discuss politics or religion at the dinner table. It's bad for the digestion" (From Robert Heinlein, I think.) I've seen other boards where political discussions in a separate "politics only" forums led to animosity that showed up in other. Of course, I've seen arguments about game mechanics turn into ugly name calling tirades and rants. Politics and religion both tend to lead to ugly flame wars that can spill over into the rest of the board and put off people who come in to talk about roleplaying, sci-fi, and Trek. On other boards, there are people who only come in to post on the political forums, and never add anything to the discussion of whatever the board was founded to dicuss.

(Something just struck me funny. Here I am, politicking to keep the forum apolitical Irony, anyone?)