Who owns ICON?

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by spshu
It is possible that Paramount has the copyright to the system. If they licensing contract did not allow Last Unicorn Games to keep the copyright to the system, because the game would be derivative of the Star Trek copyright.

Nope. If Paramount had the rights to the system, CODA may have been a little closer to it than it was (probably not, but it's possible). All Paramount retained rights to was background elements devised by LUG that they approved (which is why they were used in the CODA version of the game).

At least, that's how I understood it.

[spshu]

Original Posted by Christian Moore
[B]No. Remember that Paramount technically owns LUG's "approach" to the Trek universe. For example, our new Decipher Romulan Empire won't look any different than LUG's Romulan Empire.

[b]

You'll see the map Other planet and/or space maps will remain unchanged.



Absolutely. I think people are a bit confused about what we can and can't do, and who owns what. I'll try to summarize:

Everything content-related that we produced for Icon Trek - all of the LugTrek "canon," if you will - is owned by Paramount. Any characters, maps, worlds, starships, etc. created at LUG fall into this category, and their content may be reused. What we *can't* reuse, however, is certain actual physical product. For example, while we can use our LUG conception of the Apollo Class, we couldn't reuse the *exact* art image depicted in the UFP book. We *could* have an artist do a new piece that duplicates the old piece in every detail, but we can't use the old piece.

As far as the system goes, WotC owns the Icon System trademark. However, legal precedent in our industry has established that system mechanics cannot be protected (which is the admission made by the OGL). So, we could (if we chose) release a new system almost identical to the old Icon System; we simply couldn't use the Icon trademark name.

Instead, we've chosen to learn from our mistakes and respond to three years of customer feedback by designing a new, and IMHO better, game system. We'll begin to give folks some glimpses of the new mechanics soon, but I can say this: you'll be able to use your old Icon material with the new game.

Hope this helps at least a little bit

Christian

So here is your answer about who owns the system and trademark. (Since his remarks about the system and OGL being wrong. No copyright, no OGL.)

[spshu]

I have considered your problem before, TFVanguard, and I will probably start a new tread on the issue.

1. One thing that you could do is to create a sourcebook not a core book for the pulp IP that you want to use with the statement that it must be used with a Icon System core rulebook, i.e. ST:TOS, ST:TNG, STS9 and Dune. Basically just like how a computer program like Lotus 1-2-3 works with the Microsoft Windows.

2. You could purchase a number of Icon core books and package them with the sourcebook.

3. You could do like Gandalf of Borg did for Coda in creating a Basic System Resource (BSR) for the Icon System. Make the Icon BSR available through a fan site like Trek-rpg.net. Then indicate in your sourcebook that if an Icon core book can not be found to go to the fan site for the BSR.

Of course, there is the issue of the pulp IP you want to use the system with.

[TFVanguard]

So here is your answer about who owns the system and trademark. (Since his remarks about the system and OGL being wrong. No copyright, no OGL.)

Very helpful. (OGL isn't a guarantee if something's 'in limbo', and OGL is a more specific application of public domain territory than simply being unprotected.. it's more of a 'gentleman's agreement'...)

So the outstanding legal issue would be the Icon trademark itself, and wether it would be considered valid under WOTC at the moment. Interesting question, that.. but not one that I'm about to push

[TFVanguard]

1. One thing that you could do is to create a sourcebook not a core book for the pulp IP that you want to use with the statement that it must be used with a Icon System core rulebook, i.e. ST:TOS, ST:TNG, STS9 and Dune.

I did seriously consider this, and it's not unreasonable, but could be a pain for people who want to use what I have - but may not be able to find the LUG Trek books anymore. Even in this big-ol-gamin' burg, it's been hard to pin down copies of them.

2. You could purchase a number of Icon core books and package them with the sourcebook.

That would be a direct legal violation, though... and also require a physcial item. I was looking really at electronic-only distribution for what I had in mind anyway...

3. You could do like Gandalf of Borg did for Coda in creating a Basic System Resource (BSR) for the Icon System.

That's probably what I'm going to do, grabbing my old GEM system book for notes and using ICON as a rules base. Definately wouldn't hurt going that route... and it also lets me use material otherwise languishing there.

Of course, there is the issue of the pulp IP you want to use the system with.

Ah, that's all generic, so there's no IP issue to deal with. It's a genre book instead of a 'franchise' book. Franchises are a pain in the butt to deal with, as I'm sure everyone here's realized.

[spshu]

Originally posted by TFVanguard
<snip>
So the outstanding legal issue would be the Icon trademark itself, and wether it would be considered valid under WOTC at the moment. Interesting question, that.. but not one that I'm about to push

I thought we already answered this, but I checked the Icon TNG core book. It indicates that the trademark of "Icon System" is not registered [have only tm not (R) indicating a registered trademark]. I guess they could have registered it later. You might want to do a trademark search at the trademark office (and via search engines). It might cost some money. If it is not registered then I would assume that the trademark is open since in is not in use and has been "fallow" since WOTC has not used it since Dune rulebook. Does anyone know whether or not tm or (r) is used in Dune rulebook? If you do not want to assume this then call the product Vanguard Plup (or some other name) with small print "Use with the Icon System" and were the generic Icon rules can be found.

I also am putting in a word or two about expanding our horizons here to host non-Trek Icon content.

[spshu]

Originally posted by Doug Burke
Nope. If Paramount had the rights to the system, CODA may have been a little closer to it than it was (probably not, but it's possible). All Paramount retained rights to was background elements devised by LUG that they approved (which is why they were used in the CODA version of the game).

At least, that's how I understood it.

If Paramount ended up with the system, they may have wanted to charge for a seperate licensing fee for the system. If not for Star Trek but for any other game they use it for like Lord of the Rings. Of course I was just following through with a hypothesis of who might be the current Icon System owner if not WOTC.

[spshu]

Quote SPSHU:
1. One thing that you could do is to create a sourcebook not a core book for the pulp IP that you want to use with the statement that it must be used with a Icon System core rulebook, i.e. ST:TOS, ST:TNG, STS9 and Dune.

I did seriously consider this, and it's not unreasonable, but could be a pain for people who want to use what I have - but may not be able to find the LUG Trek books anymore. Even in this big-ol-gamin' burg, it's been hard to pin down copies of them.TFVanguard

Stiggybabby's has them. But for how long, so yes a Icon basic ruleset would probably be best.

You might want to talk to Liquidator Queeg as he has developed Fantasy Icon, so you can compare notes to develop an Icon basic ruleset.