Who owns ICON?

[TFVanguard]

Okay, here's a question... who now owns the rights to Icon, anyway? I'm guessing that it didn't transfer along with the rights to the Star Trek license, and since LUG went under.. where did the rights transfer off?

Did the copyrights return to original authors? Were they bought out? Is there limbo? Does 'Bob the Wonder Hamster' own the system now? Did WOTC get it with their buyout?

Just wondering if anyone has more concrete answers.

[Doug Burke]

IIRC, with the purchase of LUG, WOTC gained the rights to ICON and any other intellectual properties of the company. I could be wrong, though...

[Liquidator Queeg]

AFAIK, Wizards owns the LUG trademarks and the ICON system. I'm not sure how much actual "game material" they own for ICON. I'm assuming at least some, since other material was killed and went back to the authors' possession (S. John Ross and Steve Kenson come to mind).

I suppose someone could go and try to negotiate with Wizards to buy the LUG and ICON trademarks.

LQ

[TFVanguard]

I suppose I can try to find out if they even OWN it, those rights may not have transferred.. just no way of knowing anymore. I'm not sure who I would ask at WOTC now, though, or even if I could count on an honest answer.

The Trademark would have expired by now, wouldn't have it? Since it's been inactive for more than three years?

[spshu]

Trademarks do not have an expiration date. So long as the holder uses the trademark or stops others from using it. Trade marks do not have to be registered but it helps in protecting them. For example Wizards of the Coast (WOTC) bought TSR and are still using the TSR name in ESD release of TSR products. They own the copyright to the system and all printed material by Icon (sans any licensed property ie. Star Trek and Dune).

Given that Wizards of the Coast will not use the Icon System nor the Last Unicorn Games names for the most part the trademarks are available. Also the fact that Decipher has the current license for Star Trek they sure can not have them in e-book complicates the easiest way for them to protect those trademarks. I suppose that the could strip out the Star Trek or Dune material and epublish them.

[spshu]

Also did not WOTC release under the LUG's Dune core book? It seems like that was reported on these boards before. So that would be indicative that WOTC does own the Icon System.

I guess should point out that while Icon seems like one intelectual property it is acctually 2 - a trademark and the system under copyright. So some one could come out with a Icon System(TM) that is different then LUGs and they would be allright (given that WOTC has abanded the Icon TM).

Copyrights last for the live of the Author plus 75 years. Since LUG is consider the author under law (the author we know would be "work for hire author" ie. they are the corporation in effect), and if they dissolve LUG,Inc. or just bought the assets (and the LUG owners dissolve) then the 75 year clock begins then. I am not sure in the case of a merger whether or not that would be considered the "death" of the author.

[TFVanguard]

Originally posted by spshu
Trademarks do not have an expiration date.

Actually, by US law, they must be constantly in use and renewed. If WOTC does not use the ICON Trademark, then, after a couple of years, they do lose it. (This is to prevent a company from filing millions of Trademarks, just so they can then 'resell' the names to other bidders).

For example Wizards of the Coast (WOTC) bought TSR and are still using the TSR name in ESD release of TSR products.

Hence, they are maintaining the Trademark actively.

They own the copyright to the system and all printed material by Icon (sans any licensed property ie. Star Trek and Dune).

You cannot copyright a system. You may be able to patent it, but you cannot copyright it. TSR lost a few court cases, as did Hasbro, on this misconception. You can copyright a work which uses a system, but it's the WORK that's got the protection.

In other words, you could rewrite the entire ICON system, (rewrite and not dervice) put a new title on it (assuming ICON is in Trademark), and declare it new. Of course, you have to question if that's worth the trouble at that point... but Mongoose has effectively done that, and similar things happened to TSR back in the 1970s and 1980s.

Also did not WOTC release under the LUG's Dune core book? It seems like that was reported on these boards before. So that would be indicative that WOTC does own the Icon System.

Meaning that the ICON trademark would be active, but it wouldn't neccessarily settle who actually has the rights. It may have been a specific deal for the buy-out and not an explicit transfer of ownership...

I am not sure in the case of a merger whether or not that would be considered the "death" of the author.

It would depend on the terms of the buyout. If rights were expressly transferred to WOTC (I imagine that most would be), then WOTC is the effective 'author' and the clock isn't actually ticking. LUG didn't fold, it was bought up. (Think of an Estate getting the rights to, say, Tolkien, and therefore maintaining an active copyright to keep it out of the public domain.)

Also, it's 75 years OR the death of the Author, whichever comes second. That's why the Disney corp is so worried about a lot of their really old movies, since they're nearing or hitting that 75 year mark where things automatically become public domain. (Disney has got a temporary extension, but it's clear that they'll have to 'let go' of the really old works sometime.)

That's also why we are starting to see so many 'pulp era' compilations coming out, even though many of the companies that made the originals are still around - the works hit that 75 year mark.

[spshu]

Originally posted by TFVanguard
Actually, by US law, they must be constantly in use and renewed. If WOTC does not use the ICON Trademark, then, after a couple of years, they do lose it. (This is to prevent a company from filing millions of Trademarks, just so they can then 'resell' the names to other bidders).

Hence, they are maintaining the Trademark actively.

You are just restating what I said.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
You cannot copyright a system. You may be able to patent it, but you cannot copyright it. TSR lost a few court cases, as did Hasbro, on this misconception. You can copyright a work which uses a system, but it's the WORK that's got the protection.

In other words, you could rewrite the entire ICON system, (rewrite and not dervice) put a new title on it (assuming ICON is in Trademark), and declare it new. Of course, you have to question if that's worth the trouble at that point... but Mongoose has effectively done that, and similar things happened to TSR back in the 1970s and 1980s.

You can too copyright an idea and thus a system. Rewriting the system is derivative of the original idea therefore a violation of copyright. If I took a novel and rewrote it, that is still copyright infringement - you have just stole the idea. See National Publication versus Facwett. The idea in questions was the concept of Superman and Captain Marvel being a copy of said concept. While the Supreme Court ruled that Captain Marvel was unique, the Court also stated that the concept of Superman dispite being just a part of the original copyright is defendable under copyright laws.

I know of no case that TSR was involved in except for the Dangerous Journeys: Mythus case in which they did not have a leg to stand on. It was just vindictiveness against Gary Gygax. I thought TSR did not defend the copyright enough therefor letting concepts to slip into the public domain. If there were case in the '70s and '80s then appearently bad judges have done so.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
Meaning that the ICON trademark would be active, but it wouldn't neccessarily settle who actually has the rights. It may have been a specific deal for the buy-out and not an explicit transfer of ownership...


It would depend on the terms of the buyout. If rights were expressly transferred to WOTC (I imagine that most would be), then WOTC is the effective 'author' and the clock isn't actually ticking. LUG didn't fold, it was bought up. (Think of an Estate getting the rights to, say, Tolkien, and therefore maintaining an active copyright to keep it out of the public domain.)

WOTC would be the effective author in the case of a merger most likely but if they just bought the assets of LUG ie. trademarks, licenses (Star Trek, Dune) then no. If there was a license agreement regarding the publication of Dune Corebook then there either LUG was not purchased in any form. Basically the main intellectual Property (IP) assets of LUG was the game systems, trademarks and its license. It might have had some stock of the various game/source books on hand but that would mostly likely not have trigger a sale of LUG to WOTC or part of its assets.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
Also, it's 75 years OR the death of the Author, whichever comes second. That's why the Disney corp is so worried about a lot of their really old movies, since they're nearing or hitting that 75 year mark where things automatically become public domain. (Disney has got a temporary extension, but it's clear that they'll have to 'let go' of the really old works sometime.)

That's also why we are starting to see so many 'pulp era' compilations coming out, even though many of the companies that made the originals are still around - the works hit that 75 year mark.

]Originally posted at Copyright.gov
Duration of Copyright Protection
Works Originally Copyrighted on or after January 1, 1978
A work that is created and fixed in tangible form for the first time on or after January 1, 1978, is automatically protected from the moment of its creation and is ordinarily given a term enduring for the author’s life plus an additional 70 years after the author’s death. In the case of "a joint work prepared by two or more authors who did not work for hire," the term lasts for 70 years after the last surviving author’s death. For works made for hire and for anonymous and pseudonymous works (unless the author’s identity is revealed in the Copyright Office records), the duration of copyright will be 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is less.

Works created before the 1976 law came into effect but neither published nor registered for copyright before January 1, 1978, have been automatically brought under the statute and are now given federal copyright protection. The duration of copyright in these works will generally be computed in the same way as for new works: the life- plus-70 or 95/120-year terms will apply. However, all works in this category are guaranteed at least 25 years of statutory protection.

It looks like I was right about author's life plus 70 but we were both wrong about work for hire. So appearently it does not matter whether or not it was a merger or asset purchase of LUG by WOTC.

I guess if you want to know what happen to the IP, then you should contact the management or owners of LUG before the purchase.

[TFVanguard]

You can too copyright an idea and thus a system. Rewriting the system is derivative of the original idea therefore a violation of copyright.

There's a slight 'grey' in this. An idea may not be protected, but the work from that idea may be - depending on scope. Many RPGs use very similar concepts and rules, for instance, but they're not really stepping on toes between one-another.

Superman, in your example, doesn't step on toes on Cpt Marvel, Wonder Woman, etc, or vice-versa, just because they're all superheroes. There's a distinctive likeness that's protected by copyright.

Could you just lift or blatant derive ICON? Nope. Can you use the concepts that came to be ICON when completed? Sure. It can't be an ICON game, or effectively be an ICON game, of course... it has to be its own likeness.

I know of no case that TSR was involved in except for the Dangerous Journeys: Mythus case in which they did not have a leg to stand on.

No, Gygax pretty blatantly did a 'work for hire' violation, any spin to the contrary is just that. He was clearly working on a 'rival' product while still under contract to TSR.

It was just vindictiveness against Gary Gygax. I thought TSR did not defend the copyright enough therefor letting concepts to slip into the public domain. If there were case in the '70s and '80s then appearently bad judges have done so.

No, quite the contrary. TSR would sue just about anyone that had a rival game out, on the hopes of 'settling to close them down' , knowing that few companies had the bankroll to counter them. TSR, largely under Lorraine, wound up losing a few suits though, or pulling out of their suits, when companies such as Palladium or FASA started to hit back.

The basic lesson in the end is that copyright, trademark, and patent laws are much more specific application in mind than many companies would like.

WOTC would be the effective author in the case of a merger most likely but if they just bought the assets of LUG ie. trademarks, licenses (Star Trek, Dune) then no. If there was a license agreement regarding the publication of Dune Corebook then there either LUG was not purchased in any form. Basically the main intellectual Property (IP) assets of LUG was the game systems, trademarks and its license. It might have had some stock of the various game/source books on hand but that would mostly likely not have trigger a sale of LUG to WOTC or part of its assets.

It looks like I was right about author's life plus 70 but we were both wrong about work for hire. So appearently it does not matter whether or not it was a merger or asset purchase of LUG by WOTC.

Ah, but it only applies to works since 1978, which is relavent here, of course. But it makes all those old pulp works (which is relavent for what I have in mind) subject to the older laws. (Most of what I'm familiar with is related to the pulps...)

I guess if you want to know what happen to the IP, then you should contact the management or owners of LUG before the purchase.

I thought one of them was around.. heh.

[TFVanguard]

Well, according to WOTC, the don't have anything on the ICON system at all, so those rights apparently didn't transer, or WOTC simply just didn't pay any attention to it.

That would mean, I guess, that the rights for ICON went back to the original designs of the system. Any ideas on who those parties would be and how to contact them now?

[Owen E Oulton]

Based on statements made by various writers who worked on the ICON system, the rights to the ICON system were acquired along with LUG. Rights for certain materials were returned to the writers (Steve Kenson and S. John Ross among them), but the rights to the system remain with WotC. In fact, one ICON product was actually released by WotC - anyone remember Dune?

Now, it's not in WotC's interest to do anything at all with ICON, even acknowledging its existance, given their market strategy to promote D20 and their OGL as the "one true way" to role play.

Unfortunately, all the speculation in the world isn't really going to serve any real purpose, and the various parties in the know have pretty much said all they're going to.

[Tobian]

I wasn't aware Dune was released by WotC - I thought it was more like "Lets get rid of some of the printed backlog.. because theres a demand." The book was incredibly rare, so it can't have been a usual print run?

[TFVanguard]

In fact, one ICON product was actually released by WotC - anyone remember Dune?

Just curious, did it say it was an ICON game, or just the Dune RPG? Doesn't really make much difference either way, but I'm curious as to what WOTC did with it.

Unfortunately, all the speculation in the world isn't really going to serve any real purpose, and the various parties in the know have pretty much said all they're going to.

It's just odd, then, that WOTC didn't acknowledge that they had the rights - so I had assumed they had reverted. Apparently they're 'keeping' them to bury them, which makes the LUG buyout seem even more like an attempt to just kill competition... alas.

I may do the pulp game I wanted under ICON anyway, just for my enjoyment.

[spshu]

Originally posted by TFVanguard
[B]There's a slight 'grey' in this. An idea may not be protected, but the work from that idea may be - depending on scope. Many RPGs use very similar concepts and rules, for instance, but they're not really stepping on toes between one-another.

Superman, in your example, doesn't step on toes on Cpt Marvel, Wonder Woman, etc, or vice-versa, just because they're all superheroes. There's a distinctive likeness that's protected by copyright.

I am stating what the law is and you are stating how the law is interpreted/enforced. For over 216 years, the US Supreme Court would not force a state governor in complicaince with the Constitutional provision to recognized other state ruling in regards to escaped felons. In 1990's, the US Supreme Court finally enforced that provision force Michigan's Governor Engler to return an escapee.

There are other problems with the National Publications versus Fawcett case for National but that does matter to the copyright principle laid out.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
[B]Could you just lift or blatant derive ICON? Nope. Can you use the concepts that came to be ICON when completed? Sure. It can't be an ICON game, or effectively be an ICON game, of course... it has to be its own likeness.

Right. But a above you indicated that someone could do a rewrite of it which would be a blatant derivative.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
[B]No, Gygax pretty blatantly did a 'work for hire' violation, any spin to the contrary is just that. He was clearly working on a 'rival' product while still under contract to TSR.

Then why did they not sue when he did work for hire for New Infinities? The original name of the system was to be Dangerous Dimensions but was changed to Dangerous Journeys after TSR said that they would sue. See this court document for some of the issues involved. I have not found the initial complaint.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
[B]No, quite the contrary. TSR would sue just about anyone that had a rival game out, on the hopes of 'settling to close them down' , knowing that few companies had the bankroll to counter them. TSR, largely under Lorraine, wound up losing a few suits though, or pulling out of their suits, when companies such as Palladium or FASA started to hit back.

Hmm. I though that TSR did not have much money to do so that is why they allowed Judge Guild to publish licensed compatible modules. Perhaps too many lawsuits was the cause of this.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
[B]The basic lesson in the end is that copyright, trademark, and patent laws are much more specific application in mind than many companies would like.

See above about interpretation versus law as spelled out in National Publications vs. Fawcett. There are no specialized judges handling intellectual properties like there is for bankruptcy, so a lack of understanding and/or lack of research time for the judge to decide the cases cause the current state of affairs.

Originally posted by TFVanguard
I thought one of them was around.. heh.

[spshu]

Originally posted by TFVanguard
Well, according to WOTC, the don't have anything on the ICON system at all, so those rights apparently didn't transer, or WOTC simply just didn't pay any attention to it.

That would mean, I guess, that the rights for ICON went back to the original designs of the system. Any ideas on who those parties would be and how to contact them now?

It is possible that Paramount has the copyright to the system. If they licensing contract did not allow Last Unicorn Games to keep the copyright to the system, because the game would be derivative of the Star Trek copyright.