Star Trek d20

[Captain Blake]

Funny how some people can't grasp that isn't it?

The main problem I have with a d20 based system for a trek like game is that the d20 seems to overwhelm the skill set of the character.

Take an example from two nights ago.

We're trying to figure out something about the dread wraith. That's Knowledge Religion check.

So, we roll. My character, the Psion has a net of +10, I roll a 12, get a 22. The Priest with his +15 rolls a 3, gets an 18. The Paladin, with her +3 rolls a natural 20, gets a 23 and knows more than both of us.

The d20 roll vastly overwhelms the skill of the characters at a large part of the character level range.

While being great for a wahoo game like D&D, or even a Superhero game, this seems somehow wrong to emulate the genre of Star Trek. The Skill of the Character seems... Paramount. Scotty is a great engineer, and would have a good net modifier. That doesn't matter if you roll that magic 1 (it's not an automatic failure--but it's still pretty suck). Ensign slab the redshirt spent 1 cross class skill points, rolls a 20 and fixes the dilithium matrix, no problem.

You'd have to be pretty liberal with the Take 10 and Take 20 rules to give the character the right effect.

Super Pilot gets a feat that lets him Take 10 in combat. Engineering master gets one that gives him the same benefit when Engineering.

something like that.

Alex

[Tobian]

I may have a look at that later, looks interesting!

Hmm yes, I very much get your point Captain blake.. others don't, I guess we will just have to live with that... untill we see those rules which ballance the inequities.

I quite agree with the skill thing.. Yes it means anyone can do anything, but it always sucks when you simply fail to do anything on that incredibly important roll. i guess it's just what people like.. or don't. I don't like it myself.

Something I like in Coda is the degree of success/failure concept.. a barelly pass is just that, a just fail might be good enough.. I guess you could port it over but again it's another move away from actual D20 (TM)

[Alex]

The d20 roll vastly overwhelms the skill of the characters at a large part of the character level range.

EX: Scotty is a great engineer, and would have a good net modifier. That doesn't matter if you roll that magic 1 (it's not an automatic failure--but it's still pretty suck). Ensign slab the redshirt spent 1 cross class skill points, rolls a 20 and fixes the dilithium matrix, no problem.

So if we used the same mechanics but changed the d20 to a d6 or even 3d6 you'd be happy? With d6, the range of performance is much narrower, making the character's training and natural skill outweigh chance. With 3d6 the probability distribution favors an average roll and that MIN or MAX result is much more unlikely.

I have long agreed that the d20 dominates over a character's skill and training. However, it is more trouble than it is worth to try to change it. The advantage of the d20 system is its near universality right now. There are d20 games in every genre and almost everyone who currently plays some RPG is basically familiar with at least one d20 system game, making it easy to get others to try your game. If I were to list for players of a d20 Trek game, I'd probably find a few takers. If I were to list for players of a Palladium Trek game, chances are nobody will answer my notice. There is an ingrained fear of new systems in RPG players. Everyone hates learning a new system or switching systems. d20 is in no way better, mechanically, but it has the advantage of being closer to most players' comfort zone. For anyone already playing Trek, it is unlikely they will change to any other system, but for players not playing any kind of Trek yet, the appeal of a faster learning curve due to familiarity with d20 makes it a plus to newbies.

[Captain Blake]

So if we used the same mechanics but changed the d20 to a d6 or even 3d6 you'd be happy? With d6, the range of performance is much narrower, making the character's training and natural skill outweigh chance. With 3d6 the probability distribution favors an average roll and that MIN or MAX result is much more unlikely.

I have long agreed that the d20 dominates over a character's skill and training. However, it is more trouble than it is worth to try to change it. The advantage of the d20 system is its near universality right now. There are d20 games in every genre and almost everyone who currently plays some RPG is basically familiar with at least one d20 system game, making it easy to get others to try your game. If I were to list for players of a d20 Trek game, I'd probably find a few takers. If I were to list for players of a Palladium Trek game, chances are nobody will answer my notice. There is an ingrained fear of new systems in RPG players. Everyone hates learning a new system or switching systems. d20 is in no way better, mechanically, but it has the advantage of being closer to most players' comfort zone. For anyone already playing Trek, it is unlikely they will change to any other system, but for players not playing any kind of Trek yet, the appeal of a faster learning curve due to familiarity with d20 makes it a plus to newbies.

Happier, yeah. There's a section in the excellent WotC Unearthed Arcana that talks about converting the d20 system to a 3d6 system. If I were to homebrew a d20 trek system, that might be a starting point.

But, then it's not really a d20 system, it's a weird varient 3d6 system, and I'd probably use Hero, Fuzion or Action for the basis of my creation. I'm pretty unique in that I love trying/learning new systems. Most people, not so much.

You might be able to get away with a d10 instead of a d20, which would minimize the range.

Or, you could double all the modifiers, and then kick up the DCs. So, the Int 18 (+4) 9th level Engineer with max ranks in Warp Drive Repair would normally have +16 to his roll, make that a +32 with a Higher DC (double? might be too much, dunno exactly how much without some calculations that I'm not about to make here at work). Then the d20's impact is lessened. Might be too much change though.

I think that a Feat Based thing might be easier. A feat that lets you roll, but Take 10 if you roll lower? Mr Engineer rolls a 3, then uses his feat to Take 10, making his net a 26 instead of a 19. Ensign Slab the redshirt, well he takes his chances.

Alex

[Captain Blake]

I may have a look at that later, looks interesting!

Hmm yes, I very much get your point Captain blake.. others don't, I guess we will just have to live with that... untill we see those rules which ballance the inequities.

I quite agree with the skill thing.. Yes it means anyone can do anything, but it always sucks when you simply fail to do anything on that incredibly important roll. i guess it's just what people like.. or don't. I don't like it myself.

Something I like in Coda is the degree of success/failure concept.. a barelly pass is just that, a just fail might be good enough.. I guess you could port it over but again it's another move away from actual D20 (TM)

Well, degree of success/failure could be grafted onto a d20 system. Fail by 5, X happens, Fail by 10, Y instead.

One thing that might be considered is some sort of Action/Karma/Hero point system. There are several of them out there. You fail the roll, you spend a point, you get to reroll (roll a d6 and add, or something). I prefer that (post roll spending) rather than the "this is a really important roll, so I'm going to spend a point" pre-roll version. But, that's just me.

If you're going with a post-roll version, the points are going to have to be more rare. Every time you gain a level, you get points equal to your level, and you can't bank them? New one per level, you can bank them.

I'd probably give humans an extra one or two. But, then again, I'm inclined to create all the races as a +1 ECL, (and could tuck the extra points in there) then just handwave them all away.

Just off the top of my head.

Now, back to work

Alex

[REG]

i have specific reasons for disliking the concept of D20 Startrek.. those pertain to my dislike of D20 NOT my universal hatred of all other systems in known existence...

Perhaps if you tell me what are your specific dislikes, then maybe -- MAYBE -- I can try to work around them.

[REG]

The main problem I have with a d20 based system for a trek like game is that the d20 seems to overwhelm the skill set of the character.

Take an example from two nights ago.

We're trying to figure out something about the dread wraith. That's Knowledge Religion check.

So, we roll. My character, the Psion has a net of +10, I roll a 12, get a 22. The Priest with his +15 rolls a 3, gets an 18. The Paladin, with her +3 rolls a natural 20, gets a 23 and knows more than both of us.

Interesting that your GM didn't use Aid Another option where the PC with the higher skill rank roll the skill check and gain bonus from his assistants.

[Tobian]

Reg, I could go point for point for my general dislike of D20 - but then you would counter it with "Ah but in mutants and masterminds, Stargate, Steampunk, OGL ancients... whatever... they have a rule which gets round this, or an alternate system.." Yes you're right.. if such a system which combined all the best bits out of all of the D20 themed and based games, OGL or official liscence all got put together and the rest was scrapped, then I might like it, as I have said.. But no one has done that!

I think part of it is yes the actual 20 sided dice.. it's a very cruel thing.. maybe all of my dice are cursed but it always hard on me and I never pass any important tests Admitedly most of the greivances I have are with specific issues in specific games, which is not a marr on D20 it's self as a system, but added to the 20 sided dice it's very annoying.

The biggest single greivance I have with D20 is the levels thing.. Most of the games I like have NO levels - CODA, I don't care how much of a spin on it has NO Levels.. the characters start very competent (relative to the system) and they progress very slowly OVERALL compared to D20.. As a GM I hate the way D&D experience works.. yes many people, variants opt for a simplified "You levelled" approach, but those nightmarish encounter tables come into play I scream and run away, I don't have a doctorate in higher mathematics or frankly the patience to learn them,.. don't explain them to me EVER you're wasting your time, I just can't get them: i'm not stupid, I have a degree but I can't get experience tables - so number 1 thing to go is that! however that's the problem.. You set your difficulty level based on those.. so because I have no grasp, I can't work out what the hell I am supposed to be throwing up against people.. and either overkill or underpower, to my flaw!

I quite liked Stargate.. those are much simpler to work out.. but 2 things bug me about Stargate.. TOOO many Feats.. why make a book of 3 billion feats and only allow people to EVER have half a dozen of them? This is an inherent flaw in ALL D20 games too.. Feats should be like professional skills, but you only get them so rarelly it's agony to decide! Starships.. The World book while nice in the first half was so overcomplicated.. It took me hours to decode what all those prefixes meant and I was still left scratching my head why Asguard ships had 1/5th the firepower of a Goa'uld ship.. nothing made any sense, and after weeks I gave up any hope of ever being able to follow their vehicle combat system.. the rest are simply the 'it's D20' niggles and fairly minor!

M&M is a good game but I really can't see how you could take out the super powers - that's THE POINT of the game and how you factor all of the challenges etc.. Take them out and the game makes less sense, and would become tedious because you'd have your 3 million skill points to spend instead. That it might as well not be level based.. but is more teir based.. there are really just 3-4 tiers of power to run the game.. and everyone plays on your tier beyond that point.. that's cool.

The other main gripe I have with any D20 system is the complete lack of flexibility on how to spend your points AND that you still roll them! No sane person is going to turn up the opportunity of getting that 18 - and is usually bumbed out if they get a terrible roll! In Coda you could roll 4 for ever single roll.. and you would have a playable character! if you did that in D20 you'd be HIDEOUSLY crippled... I pretty much lose all interest in a game if everything I do is hampered by a massive penalty.. A Low score and a low chance is one thing.. a massive pentalty and an absolute chance of failure.. why bother to go to your gaming group, you're only going to be royally pissed off. It's happened and yes I am still bitter ! it's especially annoying when you're playing in a 'hero' game.. Hero's should not be sub par, or hideously flawed UNLESS it's by choice.. a Roleplaying choice.. I far prefer the 'pick' method.. it both allows players to choce where they want to spend their hard gotten points. I actually like 'Flaws' not only because they give you 'free' points but because if used correctly give you roleplaying opportunities.. again something I like from Stargate.. yes it does have them of sorts! and yes so does M&M

Hit Points somewhat bug me.. If you shoot a soldier in the head is he more likelly to survive than an Academic.. NO! Fatigue.. much better.. much better again is the M&M system.. one hit can flaw you.. just if you're 'super' you get back up again fast

Hmm so lets see what I have here... No levels, but experience picks which you can spend on whatever you like.. No tables of death, experience flow charts or a cubic experience table, for the above reasons;.. No major flaws, except those chosen.. No negative modifiers, except situational, or from CHOSEN Flaws; .. Definatelly throw in some Drama dice.. I like occasionally avoiding those horrible dice, I am a hero after all!; A simple modular feat system.. OR Scrap feas alltogether and have a professional tree system.. Without level caps there's no point in having feats just for improving your skills! if someone wants to be really good at something, to the exclusion of everything else, let them.. choice is not a dirty word! A Nice simple spaceship combat system.. Realistic Damage.. Dodge, resilience or other similarly named ability / skills / stat.. Hit points do not go up to ludicrous levels;.. A Pick based character creation system.. and maybe lose the D20 too

Please don't confuse this for me trying to say.. it's CODA I am not at all, I also happen to really like White Wolf's WOD 2 system, and the UNI system quite allot too.. both of those fulfil those requirements also.

[Captain Blake]

Interesting that your GM didn't use Aid Another option where the PC with the higher skill rank roll the skill check and gain bonus from his assistants.

We didn't have time to confer. Darn thing popped out of a wall, and we were trying to figure out how badly we were screwed.

"You get this much, you get this much, and you get this much more." The Paladin had to then shout out what she knew on her action.

Which was last, BTW. Our low wisdom fighter rogue showed us what we really needed to know when he used his primary combat tactic, get in close and chop bad guy up with his two bladed sword.

"Oh, crap, it drains con!" Heh.

Alex

[REG]

[snipped for brevity]

Please don't confuse this for me trying to say.. it's CODA I am not at all, I also happen to really like White Wolf's WOD 2 system, and the UNI system quite allot too.. both of those fulfil those requirements also.

Ah.

Well, not every game system is right for everybody. To this day, I still cannot get my head nor heart wrapped around Storyteller System, so why bother asking White Wolf to make it better for me?

[Tobian]

I'm sure that you could fix D20, as you've oft quoted examples of such rules alterations in the past? Perhaps I'm being demanding, but if i'm being asked, I'm going to ask!

As for Whitewolf's system. I suggest you have a look at their new WOD core rulebook.. it's a very sweet system that you could easilly build almost any game out of. It's very simple, much less complex than their previous rulesets, and a very pretty set of books! many publishers should take note!

[Silverstreak]

Ah.

Well, not every game system is right for everybody. To this day, I still cannot get my head nor heart wrapped around Storyteller System, so why bother asking White Wolf to make it better for me?

How can you not grasp it? It's easily the simplest game ever made. The original is ten times better than the new one too.

stat plus skill, roll that many D10's add up how many beat the target number assigned.

simple.

[Tobian]

It's even simpler for the new one.. You only have 1 single roll for hitting and damage! that's got to be unique in any system, and very streamlined! it was getting a little silly with dodging and soaking pools.. and to be honest I much prefer the 3 types of damage idea in Whitewolf.. I know modern D20 has 'subdual' damage, but it's still damn near impossible to knock someone out in D20 as it's the reverse damage track of your hitpoints ! GAH

[Alex]

You guys discussing Storyteller mechanics are getting off-topic for this thread.

And "one roll for determining hit and damage" is nothing new. Half the game systems out there do it. WEG d6 did it (where a roll is the sum of 4-5 d6 usually), as did a number of low sales volume games.

[REG]

As for Whitewolf's system. I suggest you have a look at their new WOD core rulebook.. it's a very sweet system that you could easilly build almost any game out of. It's very simple, much less complex than their previous rulesets, and a very pretty set of books! many publishers should take note!

Sorry. If I didn't like the original Storyteller System, what make you think I'd change my mind for the new version? I never did like the signature core elements of that rules system (roll a bunch of d10s, count successes).