Settle an argument: klingon intellect.

[Mek'Var]

My friend and I are having an argument as to whether klingons are stupid or not, or if they're particular perceptive with strong wills.

This has to do with providing a bonus or penalty to a stat.

My argument is that klingons are not, generally, stupid and are on par with humans in terms of intelligence. Their aggressiveness and tendancy to fly into a blind rage may make them do stupid things, like charging a group of people using phasers with nothing but a d'k tahg, but that is a result of their uncontrollable battle lust, not because they're dumb.

Klingons are very artistic and creative people, as expressed through their religion, stratified codes of honour, decorations and clothing styles, weapon and ship designs, and opera. They have a rich cultural heritage which would not be the case if they were, in general, below human average intelligence.

But my friend argues that they are very strong willed and their tendancy for religion makes them all wise, insightful and perceptive. I say this has more to do with their culture than any inherent ability, and that in fact, their impulsiveness and aggressiveness would mean they were less wise than an average human.

All this translates to giving a character, at character creation, a bonus or penalty. My friend says there should be a penalty to Intelligence and Wisdom should either be average or get a bonus. I argue that Intelligence should stay average and Wisdom get a penalty.

What do you think?

[Owen E Oulton]

(Yawn) - Just goes to prove that D&D20 does not map adequately to an SF game.

[Phoenix]

I suggest picking up Star Wars D20, and look at the Wookie.

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

Though I shudder at the thought of a d20 Trek and tend to agree with Owen on the subject that not all genres can work with a d20 mechanic, Phoenix's suggestion to check out the Wookie from Star Wars d20 would make for a fair comparison.

Regards,
CKV.

[Tobian]

It's just a problem with the D20 system in general, if you give something what do you take in turn.. it doesn't always map out like that in reality!

Klingons shouldn't really be stupid, they aren't and they aren't portrayed as that in either versions of them in the TV show.. they excell in space combat, tactics, technology, smithing and even suave diplomacy on rare occasions.. by and large the reason they always lost to the Federation is the reason the Federation exists.. because it's protection in numbers.. they are much bigger and thus can throw resources.. not everyone had the *ahem* tactical genius of kirk or Pickard, and the Federation did suffer many losses.

I guess if you had to take off their inteligence you could compensate by adding a couple of feats which help ballance things out..

Another way to handle it would be to go down the route of the way characters and built using Stargate, and build a macro species for them, allowing for subclasses which remove inteligence penalties for 'tacticians' etc.

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

One of the ways that is also used is Level Adjustment to factor in an overabundance of benefits but that would make the Klingons weaker hit point wise over the long haul, unless you gave them some minor benefit. Perhaps +1 hp per hit die above and beyond the regular?

*shrug* Hard to say what to do to keep balance and flavor especially given that stories/scripts written don't have to worry about continuity or keeping a realistic balance.

Regards,
CKV.

[Mek'Var]

Ok, I'm trying very hard to be diplomatic here because so far, all I seem to be copping is system bias, and that pisses me off. But I would like to think that the majority of people here can rise above that, and so I'll continue to come back here until I'm proven otherwise.

And you know what, I don't care what you think of d20. If you don't like it, feel free to post about it in another thread and rant about the evils of it there all you want, but please do not crap in my thread just because you don't like the system I prefer. At no stage was I asking for your evaluation of my system preference. In fact, I didn't even mention d20 in this thread at all. For the purposes of this discussion, it's mostly irrelevant what system is being used anyway. It's a simple question: would a klingon have a penalty to wisdom or intelligence?

I wasn't asking about balance either. This has nothing to do with balancing the race out. That's a totally seperate issue. All I'm asking, is that one, simple question.

[Tobian]

This clearly is a question about D20 and if you don't want us to answer about D20 how can we answer?

Different systems use different parameters for defining your character, and D20 uses Wisdom and Inteligence for it's - which I think is fairly obviously for D20.. the problem is basically about semantics, 'wisdom' would better be served with the word 'perception' since primarily that's what you use it for, and to be honest it's a little confusing. I'm not claiming any system is by any means perfect, I don't think anyone here is... We are just pointing out that it is extremelly hard to convert apples into oranges: We're all used to apples and you're trying to give us oranges

People here are trying to give evaluated responses and I think it's fairly clear that like it or loathe it we all KNOW D20 and therefore know how it works, how you need to ballance it and where it's flaws lie.. sticking your head in a bucket of sand and singing "la la la la" is not going to make those things go away, they are facts of game design, Especially D20... 3.5 goes a long way to ballance out the classes and races: if you want to throw that out the window, fine, but we just assumed you'd be using that precept! Ballance is about looking at something objectivelly, given a working knowledge of the system, and trying to figure out a way of taking one thing away when you add something else.. and flaws creep in..

For example, the Stargate line is actually really good (IMHO) as a D20 product, it overcomplicates in some areas, and simplifies in others, and it would probably be a much better system to build Startrek from as it already has ranking structures in there.. just rework some of the classes to sound like Startrek The Farscape product (though I don't own that) is a more 'high fantasy scifi' which might suit Startrek, as you could rebuild a Luxon as a Klingon, you already have humans and Cebatians etc etc.. D20 is not just D&D and D20 Modern! Star Wars is more or less a fantasy game with space ships and lasers so it doesn't neccessarily convert well into Startrek.

You are also not exactly the first person who has tried to convert it over: It is hard, and allot of people have problems working out how to do it, because it doesn't mesh well!... The guys on this forum know this, as we're talked about it before!

[Mek'Var]

No, I didn't ask a d20 question. I specifically didn't mention it for a reason.

I asked, and still haven't received an answer from anyone, whether you think a klingon would receive a penalty to either wisdom or intelligence.

I'm asking about WISDOM and INTELLIGENCE.

[Tobian]

Well if you're goal was to chese everyone off, you're won, congrats, have youself a prize!

keep the swearing down, or the mods will be in and close this thread!

[Dan Gurden]

Post edited by a Moderator.

Easy on the swears Mek'Var, a civil response deserves a civil answer. If you cant manage that, best not bother asking the question.

Besides, would it really have hurt you to simply say;

"Thats not what I am talking about."

Rather than laying into the F-word, offending regular users and breaching board policy.

[Dan Gurden]

And in answer to your question.

No Klingons should not get a negative penalty to any intelect or wisdom based stats.

Simple fact is, that while aggressive and warlike, they have a very varied outlook upon the universe, from their religion and honour through to their art and design, what is needed is not a negative stat modifier, but rather some mechanic to represent their aggression, that they would rather fight than apply themselves to other means.

Now as you dont want to discuss systems, thats as far as I can go.

[Mek'Var]

Originally posted by Tobian
Well if you're goal was to chese everyone off, you're won, congrats, have youself a prize!

Oh, I've cheesed people off have I? What about all the others who have thread-crapped? That doesn't warrant mention does it, 'cause most of you are in your little system zealot universes, bent on converting everyone to your 'superior' systems.

Bite me.

[Mek'Var]

Originally posted by Dan Gurden
Simple fact is, that while aggressive and warlike, they have a very varied outlook upon the universe, from their religion and honour through to their art and design, what is needed is not a negative stat modifier, but rather some mechanic to represent their aggression, that they would rather fight than apply themselves to other means.

I agree. Now if only I can convince my collaborator on this, everything will be wonderful in the universe and joy shall rain down from the heavens.

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

Flat out answer, I agree with Dan Klingons are no more wise or intelligent then humans. Give them a null mod. Their aggressive tendancies are a cultural imperative or conditioning that would be more appropriate to role-play anyhow.

Regards,
CKV.