UFP - Cardassia first contact?

[Silverstreak]

Silverstreak - erm you are! Sorry but this is a boring game, if you're going to build an argument about something don't just claim I'm wrong. My point was that you are NOT going to get ALL of the facts to fit in any way, DS9 contradicts it's self hugelly, by claiming it is on the 'edge of the federation' which has a STATED radius of at least 8000 lightyears, and you are saying they can go this far and back in the course of an episode? Sorry No you can't, hence people have proposed the joint theories of a) the Federation is lumpy, which does NOT contradict anything stated in the show and b) there are things known as warp highways, where for unknown reasons warp speed is rendered much faster. While never implicitly stated on the show: Transwarp conduits work in this fashion, as do Xindi drive technologies, and a known 'subspace sandbar' was identified in an episode, which if tenuous does imply that a cochrane factor is not always the same in every place.

I never said you were wrong, I said the maps were and Enterprise was. DS9 and TNG did many contradictory things I know, but the point I was making was none of them even account for a fraction of the errors made in Enterprise so far.

Also when you look at all the star maps they have made so far they have to be wrong. The distances are not far enough, or the Federation really isn't as big as we have been told. There is alos one other possiblitiy, Warp speed works very different then we were all lead to believe.

[jkp1187]

jkp1187 - Erm where were you looking.. on the one I sent there is a section labeled 'Warp highways'? I checked the link and it worked for me?? It is simply spelling out a condensed version of several people's interpretation of how warp drive can be made to fit the available facts.

Didn't see any "warp highways" link -- just the LCARS-ish interface and a blank center screen. Anyway, I just don't see the point of trying to hammer the square peg of warp highways into the (numerous) round holes caused by inconsistent writing over the years. Lord knows, none of us are gettin' paid for it...

yes I do agree with you to an extent however the maps themselvs VISUALLY have strange lines crossing them, which don't conform to local group gravity and matter bubling, implying warp highways, tenuous at best, but then what are they...

Okudagrams, maybe? :-D Do you have a screencap for one of these maps? I'm not sure what you're talking about -- I only caught "Enterprise" intermittently until this season, when I finally starting watching it regularly.

NB: it is stated in the TNG technical manual that the reason they rebuilt the warp scale in the TNG era was because the speed did not always equal the warp factor so instead it simply represents the amount of 'cochranes' (as a measure of subspace distortion employed) applied to form the warp field.. so traveling at 'warp 6' is not always a specific speed, ergo for as much as there would be regions where warp speed is lower there could be regions where it is faster - hence warp highways and sandbars as in the above article.

And I thought it was changed because the creative "talent" on TNG thought that anything more than "warp 9" sounded silly on TV. :-D

Anyway I suggest you look at this -> http://www.stdimension.org/int/Carto...artography.htm

Hey, that site looks pretty nice. I like the galactic chart mapwork and the raw numbers. That would have helped me quite a bit when I was using Paint Shop Pro to position the relative locations of the important star systems in my Campaign. Their rationalization of "Rigel" was baloney (i.e., the writers simply picked a real star name at random in TOS, and it continued to live on in "Enterprise",) but I can't complain too much, because whoever worked out those star locations put tons of work into it.

and by using the two precepts I mention. I am not just speaking off the top of my head but borrowing from far bigger geeks than myself

I, like you, stand on the shoulders of the true nerds!

With regards to the subspace comms thread, and yes back on topic, I agree, but there are a number of factors.. Subspace comms use accelerated photons to convey information, but these rapidly degrade, so very long range comms are inplausible.. local comms are more or less real time, but even only a few hundred lightyears can render the signal into a lightspeed communique, as it looses speed (which will arive in.. a few hundred years! )

Good idea, but too jury-rigged for my tastes. For my campaign, I cut the Gordian knot by simply limiting FTL communications to a flat speed of warp 15 (old scale, naturally; it's 2301AD, you see.) And, for that matter, the reason I don't even want to worry about warp highways (other than the fact that I see no scientific or even "Star Trek" canon basis for them,) is because, for my campaign, I WANT travel between stars to take some time, and yet be consistent. If someone wants to go from Alpha Centauri to Earth at warp 8, I want to be able to pull out my calculator and tell 'em it'll take 2.8 days.

The paradigm for the Starfleet that I'm using is not the US Navy-ish TNG fleet, which nigh-effortlessly roams the waves at will, but rather the 18th/19th century Royal Navy, ala Master & Commander or the Hornblower saga. I want the characters to be on their own a lot of the time, knowing that seeking advice from Command will take days, and reinforcements, if they're even available, are several weeks or months' sailing time away.

I WANT a voyage to Qo'noS to take weeks, a voyage to Rigel (and other parts of the old Orion sphere of influence,) to take months. And I WANT interstellar communications, even within the core Federation, to take hours or days. Technobabble is frowned upon; thinking through the problems and coming up with a solution based on native wit encouraged.

I Imagine that the Cardassians might have been a little like the early Ferengi.. people had seen them, odd reports had come in, they knew they existed, and roughly where, but then how many other civilisations in the Federations space are just like that! Starfleet will send out a vessel, eventually, but once they had expanded outwards so fast in the 22nd - 23rd century, they had allot of empty space to explore!

Well, more to the point, how do you think the "first contact" between the UFP and Cardassia occurred? I'm trying to work out how/if I should include the cardies in the campaign, and really don't know how to manage this. Was it a peaceful first contact that degenerated to war due to conflicts of interest, or was it hostile from the get-go?

[Tobian]

With regards to FTL communications, there is several instances of canon.. In the episode of TNG 'Aquiel' there was indeed such a booster relay station; Archer laid several of them; The Hirogen used such relay devices to connect to their whole region; and I do recall in DS9 that they mentioned in passing the Dominion had destroyed several relay stations to hamper communications. I really think you need to get the TNG technical manual, yes it's not strictly Canon BUT the shows own technology consultants at the time wrote it and used it as a reference within the show.. I believe that Subspace communications propogate at something like warp 9.9997 (quite fast!) in the TNG era, which is of course still more than slow enough to prevent realtime communication, however they often do manage to get a realtime connection in the show, over very long distances, which implies, perhaps, the signal is boosted. If comms were a fixed speed then why go to the bother of putting in booster relays, when you can do the same without? (Standing on the shoulders of Nerds again )

The look and feel of your vessels, their speed and your communications systems are of course up to you, and many episodes do indeed have a hornblower feel on TNG as well as they did in TOS, but you have to remember Starfleet needs to function as a space navy, and it needs communications which are reliable and an agressivelly organised structure to keep a handle on it's resources, otherwise it would fall prey to any passing marauder. Starfleet officers are cocky because they know they have Starfleet behind them, both in an internal and external sense on board the ship, and it's one huge team that has to be effectivelly managed or it would still be sitting in drydock! Largelly this is down to location..If your game is set 2000 lightyears from earth in the Antares sector, then yes it's going to take many months to get home if your CMO's sick grandmother is unwell, and it shouldn't happen in the space of an episode, however sometimes vehicles like that SHOULD overwhelm the canon, and something like a Space highway can bend that rule just long enough so that the main emphasis is on CHARACTER like it always should be! Plot drives engage!

Lets try the DITL site manually then.. go to http://www.ditl.org/ click on the 'scitech' button whence a side menu should appear.. scroll down and select 'warp scales' - if none of that works err - your broser is broken! Try Mozilla Firefox! (NB: I tested the link in both Internet explorer 6 and Mozila Firefox, and it worked both times)..

With regards to Cardassian First contact again... Well whatever you decide: IF Startrek ever cover that era, you will end up with something contradictory, so just go with whatever sounds good from what you've heard so far

Oh and Silverstreak.. err yeah, for example the stuff I JUST SAID would be 'different to what we have been led to believe' without breaking the canon altogether. I'm quite comfortable with the fusion of Canon and fan adaption, so I guess you're not going to convince me otherwise.

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

For first contact, I could easily see the Cardassians being polite upfront trying to buy themselves some time while they scramble behind the scenes, their own paranoia building.

After all, the more two-faced a person is the more they expect others to be worse and the paranoia would tend to feed upon itself until Setlik III.

Regards,
CKV.

[jkp1187]

With regards to FTL communications, there is several instances of canon.. In the episode of TNG 'Aquiel' there was indeed such a booster relay station; Archer laid several of them; The Hirogen used such relay devices to connect to their whole region;

Maybe so, but I think that just throws complexity in where none is needed. I have devised my own map, I know where everything is needed, and if the PCs need to talk to someone in a reasonable amount of time, the episode should be set up such that they will be within 10 ly of whomever it is they need to call, so that there'll just be a 24 hour turnaround time on messages.

, but you have to remember Starfleet needs to function as a space navy, and it needs communications which are reliable and an agressivelly organised structure to keep a handle on it's resources, otherwise it would fall prey to any passing marauder. Starfleet officers are cocky because they know they have Starfleet
behind them, both in an internal and external sense on board the ship

Ahh...maybe in the late 24th century, when the Federation has grown soft and flabby. Not at the turn of the century, when the Fleet consists of duotronic ships and iron men.

Anyway, the Royal Navy ruled the waves at a time when messages travelled no faster than the fastest sailing ship (and, indeed, required a sailing ship to deliver that message.) Limiting the communications speed to w/f 15 (which is ~3300c,) would permit communications at a reasonable speed while keeping the PCs from asking for help -- in situations for which the Federation does not want to sortie the fleet.

The bulk of the fleet would permanently deploy at positions that need to be defended, and since they're mostly located in the core, presumably communications would not take more than a day or two. They would only sortie in crisis or wartime situations. System patrol ships (frigates, etc.) would deploy to frontier systems, and some places would not be patrolled at all if colonists outstripped the ability of the fleet to defend every point (which would happen occasionally.)

The Exploration command would consist of expeditionary and exploration ships whose crews are trained and equipped to operate on their own. If the ships on the frontier run into a situation that requires reinforcement, a decision will have to be made by command to send the fleet out (leaving the core somewhat exposed), order the ships on the scene to deal with it (reinforced with other exploration ships, which may or may not be nearby,) or tell the ship to bug out. It might also mean that starship captains on the frontiers will have to come up with their own solutions either because communications will take too long, or while waiting for word from Command. Either way, it's all part of being in Starfleet.

lightyears from earth in the Antares sector, then yes it's going to take many months to get home if your CMO's sick grandmother is unwell, and it shouldn't happen in the space of an episode, however sometimes vehicles like that SHOULD overwhelm the canon,

If the CMO's grandmother is unwell, s/he will maintain a stiff upper lip and do his/her duty, and not spend time simpering about it. Plenty of jobs out there that don't involve being away from home for years at a time.

Lets try the DITL site manually then.. go to http://www.ditl.org/ click on the 'scitech' button whence a side menu should appear.. scroll down and select 'warp scales' - if none of that works err - your broser is broken! Try Mozilla Firefox! (NB: I tested the link in both Internet explorer 6 and Mozila Firefox, and it worked both times)..

Ah, it worked that time. No idea why.

With regards to Cardassian First contact again... Well whatever you decide: IF Startrek ever cover that era, you will end up with something contradictory, so just go with whatever sounds good from what you've heard so far

Ahh...it's just easier to ignore it. 'Canon' is wrong about half the time anyway.

[Phoenix]

This is only a working theory I have come up with reading this thread, so take it with a grain of salt.

One way to help solve the problem is to place the Cardassian Union on the other side of some other species that had caused problems for the Federation prior to the TNG time frame (yes I'm thinking in basic 2-D terms). During the TOS time frame the Federation was dealing with the existence of the Gorn, Metron and the First Federation, by the time of the Movies the First Federation seemed to have been resolved, the Gorn/Metron later still. So the Federation now continues exploring out in the same direction next they find the Tzenkethi and have a minor war with them, hints of the existence of the Cardassian Union begin to emerge, the Cardassians start to hear about the war between the Tzenkethi and some new Government called 'The United Federation of Planets', colored with Tzenkethi propaganda. Once the Tzenkethi War is dealt with the Federation explores some more, only to find the paranoid Cardassian Union, by this point were into the mid 24th century and haven't really gone that far away from the core of Federation space. Now by the TNG era, the Federation has had a war with the Cardassian Union, however we don't know the exact dates or full outcome. Only a few years later, DS9 era, the Cardassian Union starts another war with the Federation this time with the help of the Dominion, Starfleet hasn't tried to explore around them yet.

One other to look at this is the difference in distance you get while traveling in the mountains. The distance from my home to that of my parents by road is about 60 miles, due to a 14,100 ft tall chunk of granite right between us, "As a Crow Flies" my parents house is only about 15-20 away however. So if I could just go through the granite the trip would be a lot shorter. The Gorn/First Federation/Tzenkethi are the granite mountains blocking the direct path. By the time of DS9 all but the Tzenkethi have been turned in to mild hills, allowing for traffic to pass through relatively unhindered.

Any way, just trying to come up with the simplest explanation for a complex problem. Your opinions my vary.

[Tobian]

Actually yes that's a very plausible epxlanation: The Tzengethi are allong the right axis, and war generally dampens exploration!

Perhaps you could even have the Cardassians involved with the Tzengethi war to a limited degree, selling them arms in exhange for some mineral wealth etc.

Even if you ignore the whole 2D Vs 3D problem having a large blob of planets blocking your path inhibits your movement through that sector or arround it, as any slight approach is going to trigger countermove.. Yes you could go WAY round it to explore beyond, but then I guess that's like trying to discover the spice islands via the Atlantic, as our friend Columbus did.. and discover the route is a little more difficult than you thought!

[Phoenix]

Yes you could go WAY round it to explore beyond, but then I guess that's like trying to discover the spice islands via the Atlantic, as our friend Columbus did.. and discover the route is a little more difficult than you thought!

Stupid Continents

I'm glad you like the concept.

[jkp1187]

Stupid Continents

I'm glad you like the concept.

That's a good idea.... let's run with it. Why would they expand toward the UFP if that area was blocked off by the FF/Tzenkethi/whomever? Why not just start heading another way?

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

That works though I put the First Federation in almost the opposite place but then I do not yet own Star Charts.

When we are not averaging 170+ accidents a day on our roads, I'll get down to my local store where they have a copy on hold for me.

Regards,
CKV.

[Phoenix]

Here's how I have set up my version of local space (non-cannon and homemade species included). I have Mandell's Star Charts, I choose not to use it (too many things I disagree with). Also I really disagree with some of the cannon travel times mentioned in the various series.

Notes: The rings represent 100 light year increments from Earth, enjoy

*Warning 94kb image*

[Tobian]

A good amount of work, but I don't really like the way that the core worlds look so hemmed in like that, and I have to say I prefer the Klingon and Romulans in the Beta quadrant, where they should be (which they are in all of the maps except maps based on Franzo Josef's work). Good job all the same!

[Karg]

Thanks for this thread. I was thinking about an adventure using this idea!