Redundancy Question

[Archr]

As a US Navy Engineering Rate, I was wondering how to set up dual/multiple warp cores in a ship. Larger ships in the US Navy have two propulsion plants, heck, the USS Enterprise CVN-65 has FOUR plants.

So, has anyone ever set up redundant systems? I know it would take away space for other things, but as a result of the Dominion War, it might be a concept that the 'Hawks' of ASDB (?) would look at. I mean, the Ent-E in Nemesis had a few touches that looked like it would make it more survivable, like the shield around the core and programable targeting systems.

I was thinking of other systems as well, like setting up secondary medical stations, lesser ability than primary sickbay but capable of providing quality emergency medical care.

This also comes from reading the Honor Harrington series. Redundant systems, the evolution of fighter craft and carriers in a battleship/dreadnaught Navy. I was wondering if this is also something that would come about in the ST Universe, post War.

And a Role Playing concept for it, what would public reaction be for a ship of this nature? I know it would be looked upon as provacative and unnecessary prior to the Borg and the Dominion, but how would it be after the end of the War?

Anyway, enough rambling of a really tired Nuke.

R/
Captain Archr
ST: Union (still in pre-production)

[Phoenix]

Well technically all starships have secondary engines Warp and Impulse. However having a back-up warp core does sound like an extremely good idea (in the real world), to me it runs a little against the Trek feel. One other fact that needs to be considered, redundant system damage. It's hard enough to keep one highly dangerous anti-matter engine from being damaged (i.e. Core Breech), let alone two engines.

Now as far as your Sick-bay question, I've always assumed you have smaller medical stations and triage centers at key locations through out a ship.

As to the third question - "what would public reaction be for a ship of this nature?" are we talking about here on the boards or in the eyes of the Federation Public?

[jkp1187]

For an interesting meditation on how a pure battleship conflicts with the nature of the Federation, see Diane Carey's early Star Trek Novel called "Dreadnought".

[redwood973]

I was thinking of other systems as well, like setting up secondary medical stations, lesser ability than primary sickbay but capable of providing quality emergency medical care.

--Archr

TNG tech manual talks a little about this topic for the Galaxy-class. One would assume there is such a thing for the other class vessles as well.

[Archr]

Phoenix-
I am aware of the fact we have both Warp and Impulse engines. As for the safety of warp cores, I was wondering- How many times did a Core Breach get threatened in TOS/Movies era? Perhaps the M/AM reactors of the TNG/DS9/VOY era have been overcharged and therefore have more power in exchange for a little more fragility?

As for the public reaction, I was referring to the Federation in general. I figure the Board denizens would love it, personally.

ikp1187-
I think I read Dreadnaught once upon a time. Had the most ominous statement ever to be spoken in the TOS.
Scotty: Lassie, you broke me ship.

redwood973-
Will have to wait six months to look over that, as I am deploying in a week.



Thanks for the advice. But back to the concept of setting up multiple cores/engines, how would the numbers be run on that? Has anyone ever done that?



R/
Captain Archr
ST: Union (still in pre-production)

[jkp1187]

ikp1187-
I think I read Dreadnaught once upon a time. Had the most ominous statement ever to be spoken in the TOS.
Scotty: Lassie, you broke me ship.

Heh...that's from the sequel, "Battlestations". Unique books. Ahh, for the days when authors could actually do creative stuff in Star Trek novels....

[Archr]

Whoops, you are right on that one. Thanks for the quote correction.

Still, an ominous statement. Enterprise was his. He just let Kirk drive on occassion.

R/
Captain Archr
ST: Union (still in pre-production)

[Tobian]

A starship has more than just the warp core to power it, there are dozens of fusion reactors scattered throughout the ship, including the one's which power the impulse engines directly. These aren't powerful enough to allow warp travel, but they are more than adequate to power the ships systems, weapons and shields (under normal circumstances).

Of course it is quite possible to have multiple warp cores. It's conjecture, but many estimate the Akira class has them, due to it's unusual catermeran hull configuration. I guess the reason they don't always cary spares is simple.. it's one of the largest most complex and energy intensive objects on the ship, manufactured to incredibly high tollerances. As a point of note yes the Sovereign class does have a shield in main engineering it will NOT contain a core breach, which has the effective potential destructuve capability to destroy the ship and several others in a wide radius! Fortunatelly space combat takes place over a good range and there is no concussive blast!

I am not sure about other ships, but in the TNG technical manual, the Sickbay actually takes up most of the inner radius of deck 8, and can treat hundreds of people. They also have the capacity to convert the shuttlebays into triage centres (and shuttlebay 1 is HUGE, never seen on screen) - so yes all these things are possible, it just takes time to mobilise!

[jkp1187]

Whoops, you are right on that one. Thanks for the quote correction.

Still, an ominous statement. Enterprise was his. He just let Kirk drive on occassion.

R/
Captain Archr
ST: Union (still in pre-production)

Quite so! The free-for-all battle at the end of Battlestations ranks as one of the better starship combat scenes, I think.

[Archr]

Tobian-
I see your point on the complexity of the cores, as well as the shield not being enough to contain the blast. Perhaps it is a precaution for emergency jettison? I know they did not show that in Insurrection, but it might make it a little safer when opening Engineering and several decks of the ship to space.

As before, I know that the warp core is not the only power supply. Mainly what I am wondering is HOW to work the numbers. Do I buy the intermix chamber twice and that is it? Only one set of plasma conduits? What is the way I would purchase this and make it work in during construction, on paper? That is my main question.

And basically, would creating the additional triage areas be simply lower rating sickbays? Cost-wise, I mean.


And no one has commented on core stability in TOS vs TNG/DS9/VOY warp cores. Using cannon (episodes and movies), are the TOS version more stable?

Sorry if it seems I am beating a dead horse here, I was just wanting to see if anyone else had gone this route and had insight. Once I get some of my designs done and playtested, will post them for C&C.

Thanks for the time.

R/
Captain Archr
ST:Union (still in pre-production)

[Tobian]

Hmm Core stability, that's a very hard question to answer because it is not comparing like with like.. A TOS core will have far less throughput, but then in TNG they have had ages to refine the technology, but then in TOS they didn't actually have a warp core at all (not an up down glowing lava lamp! just a couple of boxes stuck to the wall, and even in the Movie era the reactors were not all together like they are in TNG) - Comparing like with like in the TNG era is easier because they are more similar, i would probably say the answer is.. how hot you run them! Both Voyagers' and The Ennterprise E's cores were designed to allow much faster speed, with invariably means more throughput. The Defiant was also very fast but then it was also known to be fairly unstable and had to be highly dampened to stop it blowing up when it was running hot! I would probably say Voyagers' core was the most stable, because the ship was less of a combat monster and smaller than the Sovereign class, so it needs far less power to be running through there.

In terms of doubling up, you would just pay what you wanted to make redundant. A good example of a canon ship with multiple warp cores would be the Promethius, which as 3 seperable parts, which can all go to warp, so perhaps start by deconstructing the points cost there - it would have EPS conduits, Warp cores and even nacelles spare! Unless you wanted to establish isolated PTC lines, then really there's no need to have a seperate PTC / EPS system for the two cores.. if you just purelly wanted a space core incase you ejected one! If you wanted to run both in tandem, as a more inique design, then you would probably not need to unless you physically decided to separate them (Such as the Promethius example). Technically speaking there is not much point in using the argument of "But what happens if someone blows up my warp core, won't that mean the EPS system is damaged" yes, allong with the ship KABOOM EPS systems are isolateable by nature, and generaly (canonically triply so according to Miles O'Brien in an early DS9 episode) multiply redundant, and i imagine that comes in with the cost of the system (but I may be wrong there, I haven't picked up Spacedock in a while!)

With regards to the Triage bays, no I doubt you would pay extra for these, because they aren't really taking up any more space: They use the same power taps and forcefields etc of the shuttlebay. The only thing you are really paying for is aditional cargo space, to store all of the potential medical supplies: It is unlikelly you are going to have a full BIOBED roll out into the shuttlebay, but you might open a wall pannel and pull out a bed roll/ blanket and a medpack, but then those things are often distributed around the ship in the side pannels of coridoors too. I am not sure if the medical supplie themselves come under SU's?

[Archr]

Tobain-

Thanks for the answers and opinions. I appreciate it. Will see about placing what I come up with on the group as soon as I get it written up and tested.

r/
Captain Archr
ST: Union (still in pre-production)

[Tobian]

No problem, it will be interesting to see what you produce. You could always simply carry a spare warp core, in spares in the cargo bays Or maybe have a secret extra one like Voyager did on it's cross section.. which they never mentioned

to be honest I doubt that most species would have an ejectable core like that - Starfleet is overly crew protective, the possible exception being the Romulans, as a quantum singularity collapsing your ship and it's escape pods wouldn't be very nice!

technically speaking a PTC breach should be just as devastating as it's the net result of the warp core output funneled down a magnetic containment field! It's a little wolly that the warp core exploding should be any more deadly than that.. of course if that explosion carries down.. in to the antimatter pods then yes I do see that being a problem! it kind of explains why when Voyagers core nearly breached it kind of didn't do...anything.. when they ejected it, but then converselly the E's core did - BANG

[Archr]

Tobian-
As I never saw the VOY episode you mentioned, I cannot really compare the two instances you describe. From Insurrection, the E ejected its core with the express purpose of detonating and sealing the subspace tear. Not sure why VOY ejected theirs, other than the idea of avoiding destorying the ship in a breach. I figure there is a procedure, or at least some general understanding, for using the warp core for an explosive, and that might differ from spacing it to prevent an explosion.

Still, it is all conjecture.

Currently, am working on a TOS/Movie era overly redundant ship. Basically calling it an Archangel Class Dreadnaught (inspired by the book references, and the SFC games). Size 8, and yes, I know that is larger than the SRM 4 rules state, but am going under the concept of it being a prototype spaceframe. It also would fit in the Cold War mindset, I would think. Post TMP, Pre TWoK. Still needs a lot of work. Will show you when I get it running.

SF ship designed by a US Navy Nuke. Be afraid.

R/
Captain Archr
ST: Union (still in pre-production)

[jkp1187]

Tobian-
As I never saw the VOY episode you mentioned, I cannot really compare the two instances you describe. From Insurrection, the E ejected its core with the express purpose of detonating and sealing the subspace tear. Not sure why VOY ejected theirs, other than the idea of avoiding destorying the ship in a breach. I figure there is a procedure, or at least some general understanding, for using the warp core for an explosive, and that might differ from spacing it to prevent an explosion.

Still, it is all conjecture.

Currently, am working on a TOS/Movie era overly redundant ship. Basically calling it an Archangel Class Dreadnaught (inspired by the book references, and the SFC games). Size 8, and yes, I know that is larger than the SRM 4 rules state, but am going under the concept of it being a prototype spaceframe. It also would fit in the Cold War mindset, I would think. Post TMP, Pre TWoK. Still needs a lot of work. Will show you when I get it running.

SF ship designed by a US Navy Nuke. Be afraid.

R/
Captain Archr
ST: Union (still in pre-production)

I'd be interested in seeing what you came up with regarding engine redundancy. My campaign is also in the movie era (actually, just afterwards -- 2301AD is the starting year.) I'd also be interested in seeing what sort of ships you come up with -- I can share a few of my own (including a sz 2 shuttle inspired by the C-130, an Excelsior variant, a salvage ship, and an Orion cabin cruiser/fighter.)