You mean LUG Trek was not the first?

[redwood973]

O.K., I have seen on TrekRPGnet references to pre-LUG games. LUG was not the first? I am only familiar with LUG, so I was wondering if you all could post how the RPG has changed. What were the others like (where there two?). I have seen post by persons who liked the old ship stats, how have the ship stats changed? I have seen mention that LUG Trek is expected to change with the new company. If the new company owns the rights to LUG material, why change at all? I mean they can use the LUG material, just expand on it, right? Anything you can post to help me gain insight into pre-LUG, and how post-LUG will be, would be appreciated!

[This message has been edited by redwood973 (edited 06-04-2001).]

[Dan Stack]

Post-LUG, Decipher has the rights to the concepts produced by LUG. They do not have the rights to the actual text, illustrations, or game system...

Pre-LUG. There was a RPG in the early-mid 90s based upon Starfleet Battles entitled "Prime Directive", but it was really at the periphery and had a very minimal impact.

The main predecessor is FASA's Star Trek roleplaying game. It was produced throughout most of the 80's if memory serves correctly, losing its license in 1988 or 1989 I believe. The FASA game today receives a fair amount of criticism, some deserved, most not - it is important to note that the game was made pre-TNG, without there ever being an expectation of a TNG.

Rules-wise, the character generation system was somewhat similar to LUG's - this was intnetional on LUG's part, based on comments some of the creator's comments - one of the most popular aspects of the FASA game was the way it carried you through various stages of your character's life. However, FASA used a percentile-based skill system - you had to roll under your skill rating in percentile dice to succeed in a task (typically a rating of 40 was considered adequate to perform routine tasks without a skill).

The ship combat system was a bit different - it was designed to be played on a hex board, with players controlling their variation stations with the aid of special control panel sheets, with room for counters and the like - the engineer kept track of power, performed repairs; the science officer made sensor rolls, etc. It was pretty revolutionary at the time. Two of the more popular ships made by FASA include the frequently mentioned Chandley and Loknar class frigates.

The early adventures were among the best in my opinion - they were often sequels to TOS episodes. The later adventures and supplements got more warlike, with Starfleet marines, "militaristic" adventures, etc. This receives a lot of flack today, and I personally disagree with this move, but I suspect the success of Battletech (FASA's other main game of the time) helped move them in this direction, along with the more militaristic Starfleet seen in STII and STIII.

FASA created a lot of concepts, some of which have since been de-canonized, but many are interesting. Among some of their ideas...
- TOS took place in 2207-2211. ST:TMP took place in 2217, STII in 2222.
- Romulans were seeded on Romulus by the Preserves, who the Romulans came to regard as "The Great Brothers" who put them on their "road to the stars" (the latter quote seemed to make its way into a season 3 TNG episode - the one where Geordi and a Romulan were stuck on a planet together...)
- Klingons had three races - the Imperial Klingons (seen in the movies and TNG) and genetic fusions - Human and Romulan Fusions, genetically engineered to resemble (and theoretically be useful against) their greatest enemies. The Klingons were very different, not as obsessed about honor, more so about the Great Game. This view was shared with John Ford's "The Final Reflection" (in my opinion the best written Star Trek novel, told from the perspective of a Klingon going from childhood to captain of a warship).
- Where the Klingon, Romulan, and Federation spheres of influence met, there was a "wild west" style frontier called "The Triangle"
- FASA produced many rules for merchant/independent type characters.
- In the 2190s was the Four Year's War between the Federation and Klingon Empire, started by a Klingon base being set up on the primitive planet of Axanar (a very different take than LUG's Axanar).
- The war against the Romulans was between the Federation and Romulan Star Empire, not Earth and Romulus.



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U.S.S. Icarus

[Cochrane]

When I first started buying RPG's, I bought Fasa's Klingon and Starfleet Intelligence books, thinking at the time that they stood alone. I guess the core book would have been extremely difficult to find by then.

I also around that time bought the Prime Directive core book. I love Prime Directive. Mostly what I like is their original races and empires, and their takes on canon ones. Any news on PD2?

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The Trekkie Formerly Known As Surak, AKA The Coch, Humble Creator of the Bwuutut and Mensaeans, Aba and Zwickau, and the Perseus Federation, Guy Who Still Hasn't Actually Played The Game, And Who Finally Decided To Use A Signature.

[Dan Stack]

Hmmmm... PD did have some interesting concepts, especially the use of Prime Teams (i.e. Away Team-only crewmen), something I used in my TNG Icarus game (in the TOS [i}Icarus[/i] game, the senior officers go down in every landing party, as it should be).

What drives me nuts about the SFB universe is the constant and never-ending war. I understand it is a game of ship combat, but I just can't see the Federation staying even remotely idealist after so many wars...

[Cochrane]

If I ever actually use any PD stuff, I might just use the races in a more Trekly Icon or Decipher setting. Mostly I like the ISC and the Klingon subject races.

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The Trekkie Formerly Known As Surak, AKA The Coch, Humble Creator of the Bwuutut and Mensaeans, Aba and Zwickau, and the Perseus Federation, Guy Who Still Hasn't Actually Played The Game, And Who Finally Decided To Use A Signature.

[AllenS]

The very first Star Trek RPG was released in 1978 by miniatures company named Heritage Models to accompany a line of minatures they were doing. It was heavily based on the animated series and just as heavily based on D&D. And, I might add, it blew chunks

Allen

[Cochrane]

Alright Allen, don't spare the gory details!

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The Trekkie Formerly Known As Surak, AKA The Coch, Humble Creator of the Bwuutut and Mensaeans, Aba and Zwickau, and the Perseus Federation, Guy Who Still Hasn't Actually Played The Game, And Who Finally Decided To Use A Signature.

[Paul]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Stack:
The main predecessor is FASA's Star Trek roleplaying game. It was produced throughout most of the 80's if memory serves correctly, losing its license in 1988 or 1989 I believe. The FASA game today receives a fair amount of criticism, some deserved, most not - it is important to note that the game was made pre-TNG, without there ever being an expectation of a TNG.
</font>

Not quite, Dan...FASA-Trek did include a TNG sourcebook, covering first season only - not that it was terribly good...

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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)

[Dan Stack]

What I meant was the vast background which FASA setup was made without fear of contradiction from Paramount - much like the new DS9 novels being made without worry of ever being contradicted.

If memory serves FASA had three supplements after TNG started:

The White Flame - A scenario booklet for their starship combat game - I don't have it and I could be off on the date, but I'm pretty sure it was published in 87 or 88 - though it was designed for the TOS/movies period.

Star Trek: TNG Officer's Manual - FASA went a little silly in this one, making up all sorts of stuff which was practically guaranteed to be invalidated - they made their own fates of the Ennerprises -B and -C, made up interim uniforms, etc. Some of it was interesting. Rumor has it this book was the breaking point between FASA and Paramount and they actually published it without approval from Paramount and had to withdraw it. I have a beaten up copy...

ST:TNG First Year Sourcebook - came out in 88 or 89 I believe. A much more modest book, designed to coverr only the first season of TNG. It only had ships which appeared in the show, had TNG character generation rules, equipment, etc. Pretty to look at - FASA's only all-color Star Trek book. I designed my own character generation rules somewhat different from what FASA came up with.

[Don Mappin]

Your information is right on Dan, especially regarding the “ugly purple book.”

Interestingly, White Flame is the only FASA Trek product I don’t own. That sucker is difficult to find.

I once spoke with some old FASA employees from the Trek days and the last book they were working on (and almost finished) prior to losing the license was the Gorn sourcebook and Ship Recognition Manual. Damn shame.


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[Dan Stack]

Regarding White Flame - that's funny - it is one of the few supplements I'm missing as well (as well as the first editions of the Klingon Supplement, Ship Construction Manual and Trader Captains/Merchant Princes - though I have the 2nd edition of all those).

I had really been looking forward to the Gorn books too. I also remember every single catalog had an advertisement for Operation Armagedon, which was supposed to be some huge wargame.

[Eric R.]

Hey fellas, both ebay and amazon have a White flame up for auction as while as sale and it has been there a long long time its from Intergalactic down in Orlando and is priced at 7 dollars. Its like its just been waiting for ya!

Now be nice and don't bid each other broke

[Cmdr Powers]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AllenS:
The very first Star Trek RPG was released in 1978 by miniatures company named Heritage Models to accompany a line of minatures they were doing. It was heavily based on the animated series and just as heavily based on D&D. And, I might add, it blew chunks

Allen</font>

Yeah, and I had a great time writing it too. Heritage wanted something quick and dirty. Lou Zocchi referred them to me. I wrote up the whole thing very, very quickly and it shows. I wince to read it now, but I did do it first!


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"The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" -Montgomery Scott

[This message has been edited by Cmdr Powers (edited 06-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Cmdr Powers (edited 06-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Cmdr Powers (edited 06-04-2001).]

[Imagus]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Stack:
What drives me nuts about the SFB universe is the constant and never-ending war. I understand it is a game of ship combat, but I just can't see the Federation staying even remotely idealist after so many wars...</font>

One thing you've got to remember about SFB and Prime Directive, is that they're based on the TOS Federation, not TNG. The original could be seen as a lot more militaristic. The SFB version is certainly no more idealistic than the US military.

Incidentally, it hasn't been mentioned yet here, but SFB was never originally licensed from Paramount/Desilu (hence the lack of Trek characters and TNG stuff). It was licensed off Zocchi's Star Fleet Battle Manual, a miniatures game from about '74, which was IN TURN based on and licensed off the Ballantyne Technical Manual, which was a Trek license. I get the impression Paramount are a lot stricter about this kind of thing now... I understand the new computer game version does have Paramount's blessing!


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Slartibart-Jon

[Cmdr Powers]

While Lou and I did do the SFBM first, Steve Cole did SFB entirely separately- with our encouragement. Essentially, the SFBM was a miniatures game and SFB was a board game. Later both games blurred the lines with SFB using miniatures and Lou crafting ad hoc board rules for SFBM. Lou Zocchi and I both thought Steve had a lot of balls to so blatantly use TOS universe stuff without explicit permission. Of course both our design houses were licensed- separately- by Franz Joseph Schnaubelt.

I might add that Steve talked Franz into selling him a license with the idea that SFB was a "simulation" that Star Fleet cadets would use for wargames. He had no idea that Steve would create such a war-torn universe and was somewhat appalled when he found out how far Steve went with his background.

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"The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" -Montgomery Scott