A very spooky idea

[Protius]

This picking apart the pre-warp terminology is quite unneccessary. The term pre-warp is used because warp is pretty common. The bottom line is, the Federation does not want to start being the cause of failed upbringings of a people before such time that they would bring themselves into a position where contact with other species is inevitable. Fight for your country, your patriotism, your religion and your belief system all you want but once you put yourself into the interstellar scale, you instantly implant yourself into the chaotic twists and turns of intergalactic politics.

As with the sub-light race, if they're trying to pillage a federation planet, it's hard not to make contact. If they are starting a colony on another world previously unowned by the Federation, write them both off as untouchable for a while.

At this point, with as many governing powers exist throughout the quadrant, a Nazi world would have a pretty tough time as an upstart to gain any hold in the stars anyhow.

One sure-fire way to be able to interfere in the affairs of the planet is have the Hitler-figure be a known alien to the world, interfering himself.

[Robert Lai]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by warmon4:
I see it so many ways here. If you don’t offer help to those in need, just because they have not reached a certain technical development level, seems like playing the role of an “uncaring god” to me. Think how upset you would be if an epidemic of massive per potions struck human kind and there are aliens who could solve it in quick order, and they did nothing. All just because they have a mode of transportation we don’t. Seems a bit looking my nose down at less technical people. I do understand the pitfalls of acceleration of a cultures development. I think it was said in a next gen episode that the most caring phrase was not “I love you “ but “how can I help?”</font>

" 'Let me help.' A thousand years from now, a poet will recommend those words above all others, even 'I love you.'"

There's a difference between 'please, help us' and showing up, dropping in, and making the decision for a non-starfaring race. "Well, you're just too immature to understand what's going on, so we'll just off this dictator here, and free these prisoners here, a little paint, some flowers ..."

Unfortunately, it's the first step on becoming a dictator yourself. I believe it's in Gordon R. Dickson's 'The Final Encyclopedia' that a charismatic leader speaks to the hero, and points out that gosh, haven't you noticed how incapable they (the rest of humanity) is of taking care of themselves? That things would be better if YOU took control and made the decisions for them?

The Prime Directive is an extremely difficult rule to observe, and most captains run afoul of it in the course of their careers. Even historians like John Gill forget the necessity Ð he brought the Nazi culture to Ekos as a model of efficiency, but it was one ambitious man, Melakon, who turned it on its head.

All things being equal, if you eliminate Hitler, might someone else take his place? Someone potentially more ruthless, more brutal? What do you do then? Kill this person as well?

Breaking the Prime Directive is a slippery slope, and it's meant to keep the Federation out of untenable situations. When a culture has a world picture that allows for other worlds, other sentient life, and an open exchange of ideas ... then the Federation is there.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Now lets put this on its ear. How do you know the “Nazi” are going to lose I could not have told you that in 1943. It would have been a safe bet that Germany not the USA would be the first with atomic weapons. Hitler’s interference in the war at many levels lost it for them, but at the time, they were not so bad off. So what is to say these “Nazis” will make the same mistakes or the allies blunder very badly.

Twist your ear again; it makes no difference to the prime directive if the “Nazi” are going to win. What if they are well on their way to doing so and think how big the camps would have been with the multi ethnic USA under the Nazi thumb. What to do then all it takes is for one crewman to “defect” with a working tricorder and a shuttle with a transporter to change the way the whole thing turns out. I would take a good long fight, but so much suffering ended. How would a jury convict a man who just saved the lives of millions?</font>

It would be a court-martial with a review board consisting of command-rank officers. While that man's intentions may have been good, at the very least, he broke the rules and disregarded the chain of command. He'd lose.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">By the way, don’t you think it is funny USA developed the first atomic bomb and the most warlike culture of it's day never even started a real true atomic weapon development program.</font>

Nazi Germany had a hard-water plant that was destroyed in a daring raid by Norwegian commandos. They went in by cross-country skis, and back out again.

The US also benefitted by way of acquiring scientists such as Fermi, Bohrs, Einstein and others.

So it wasn't so much funny as lucky, and the right blend of circumstances.

Bob

[Protius]

That's the theory behind the timestream, the point that if you remove a key figure such as Hitler before he can make his mark on the world, another of his type would eventually rise to fill the role. I think I read that once in the Dr. Who RPG when it was explaining the nature of time.

[Fortunae]

Some comments on this thread:

1) The Prime Directive does allow for the Federation to interfere in the affairs of a pre-warp civilization when they are being tampered with by a starfaring outside force. Canon espisodes like this occured mostly in the TOS era, but there were a few TNG episodes, and even that Voyager episode with those two Ferrengi that showed this.

2) The non-interference in Internal Affairs of other powers means, not interfering unless specifically requested, and then that request has to be ruled on by the Elected Federation Council -- not by a Starship Captain. It's a decision reserved by the Civilian government for itself. The Klingon Civil war is an example of this, the Federation wouldn't take sides or interfere until they had determined the Romulans were involved, then they *offered* to assist with keeping the Romulans from interfering..not actually fight the rebel Klingon Houses. Usually when there is a dispute between spacefaring powers, the extent that Starfleet is usually allowed to be involved is offering to act as a 3rd party mediator to help both sides come a peaceful resolution. Heck, Federation member species might decide to rumble with each other, and this would have to be discussed by the Council as to what steps would be taken by Starfleet. The initial response would probably be a blockade to prevent exchanges of fire and if one side or both sides refused to seek mediation, expelling them from the Federation.

3) As to this "Nazi" parallel planet... a Starfleet captain has no more "right" or even moral imperative to interfere here then if the planet was about to be wiped out by a solar flare. Remember the episode with Data's "pen pal"? Part of the crushing responsibility of sitting in the big chair is having to remember that there is the right way, the wrong way, and the Starfleet way.

There are *good* reasons for the Prime Directive. If there had been a Prime Directive in place when the U.S.S. Ranger had encountered the Klingons, the Klingons wouldn't have subdued a bunch of species and been such a thorn in the Federations side for such a long time -- or not as early anyway.

Let's look at your scenario here and consider this:
The captain decides to get involved:
1) an unexpected chain of events could result in the starship being destroyed without having reported their position...crew members could be stranded on the planet, captured, tortured, interrogated. Federation technology, including a Shuttle could fall into the hands of the natives. The Starship is reported as M.I.A. and follow ups don't discover what became of it. Then 50 years later, the native explode from their world with sophisticated warp and other derived technologies and begin conquering other worlds until they run up against one of the "Powers". The genie is out of the bottle and nothing they can do will put it back..what's worse, this new power may have no problem with conquering a new world by orbitally bombing the current inhabitents...millions more die then if the Captain had just obeyed the rules given to him by the ELECTED officials of the Federation. (if the majority of the citizens of the Federation thought the Prime Directive was a bad idea, they would have repealed it already.)

OR..they intervene, there is no disaster, and there is no "official" recrimination because the crew all decided to criminally fabricate records and never reveal their breech of Law. (Law as opposed to regulations because the Prime Directive is a Federation Law, it applies to civilian Federation Citizens too.)

But they weren't able to cover it up so neatly on the planet..certain key members of the various warring governments are aware of their dabbling. This becomes an insidious paranoia and feeling of inadequecy, that powerful Aliens have tampered, and who knows if they haven't tampered in the past. If the knowledge goes too public it could cause a total collapse of social customs as religions are discredited. But assuming it doesn't, those governments might engage in a space race to see who can get out there first and secure an alliance for their idealogy. Decades later the Federation or another Power might be contacted by different factions of the same planet trying to cut a deal. This leads to terrorism or even desperate Doomsday plans if one side seems to have an edge -- the Federation probably refuses to deal with them until they have a world government..but this doesn't stop the Orions or the Ferrengi, or who knows who else. Or, the different groups seeks aid from rival powers...one invites the Romulans, one invites the Cardassians or whoever...no one invites the Federation so they can't do much more then offer to mediate. The Powers back their faction, a global blood bath occurs and it mights spread into a war in space between said powers...all because a Starfleet Captain couldn't abide doing what they have been ordered to do, or in this case, *not* do.


Okay... so all that aside now. What could make this a *good* adventure idea is have the planet discovered by a *Civilian* captain... they decide to help, things go badly, your ship and crew show up and have to somehow salvage this situation and since the cat is out of the bag, they have to find a way to stablize things long enough for the Federation council or vote on a resolution, and then they have to institute it. What's more, they have to incarcerate and bring to trial the civilians who started the mess...but the natives may not want to release the criminals for deportation and trial, starting another rash of problems...

Just my thoughts,
Peace.

[LCM]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fortunae:
Some comments on this thread:

...The... Prime Directive is a Federation Law, it applies to civilian Federation Citizens too.

</font>

According to the canon TNG episode "Angel One," this is not correct. Only Starfleet members are bound by the Prime Directive. Though it does seem that most Federation citizens respect--and endeavor to follow--its strictures, they cannot be held accountable for violations.

[Fortunae]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LCM:
According to the canon TNG episode "Angel One," this is not correct. Only Starfleet members are bound by the Prime Directive. Though it does seem that most Federation citizens respect--and endeavor to follow--its strictures, they cannot be held accountable for violations.

</font>

I suggest, respectfully, that you watch Angel One again -- The Enterprise was stopping by to make another Courtesy Visit, a routine "Hey, how's it going?". This means that Angel One already had prior relations with the Federation, meaning it wasn't a Pre-Warp culture, meaning the Prime Directive didn't apply in the context of what we are talking about. The crashed survivors marrying into the population wasn't a violation of *Federation Law*, and them interfering with the Matriarchy therefore wasn't an Official interference of an internal matter by a Federation Agency. You will note that here, Starfleet once again offered to *mediate*, but were prepared to save the lives of the Federation people if they were in fact going to be executed by the State -- taking the stance that despite the citizens not wanting to leave, Starfleet was obligated to protect their lives if the State was going to execute them.

You can be sure that if Angel One had been a prewarp culture, Picard would have had all of those shipwrecked people beamed away from the planet whether they wanted to go or not...and then a civilian commitee would have been assigned to evaluate what charges if any needed to be applied.

Federation law cuts civilians more slack in this regard, particularly in the case of an accidental breech of the Prime Directive..but if civilians deliberately interfered in a pre-warp society, went out of their way to do it, they would be stopped, arrested, and would certainly serve time in a correctional facility or penal colony.

Peace.

[John Raynor]

Re. the Prime Directive for "Civilians":

The Prime Directive really doesn't make any
sense if it doesn't apply to civilians. If
the Federation collectively believes that
Starfleet (its "best and brightest") lacks
the wisdom and sensitivity to interact with
primitive non-starfaring societies, then the
Prime Directive is *even more* necessary for
less well-indoctrinated ordinary folks.

That having been said, however...

How much non-Starfleet Prime Directive
violation goes on? In my opinion, Starfleet
is spread too thinly to keep civilians from
messing with primitive societies. On the
other hand, does Starfleet really have to?
Starships (even civilian ones) keep logs,
and a lot of what goes into a starship's
log is probably put there automatically, by
the ship's computers. Routine, ordinary
things like heading, speed, rate of fuel
consumption, navigational deflector output,
density of the interstellar medium and number
of micrometeorite impacts. Hundreds of bits
of trivia. "Faking" all of the "automatic"
stuff in a ship's log (to cover up an
unauthorized detour to a primitive planet)
would be *very* difficult, *particularly* if
somebody gets suspicious, and tries to
reconstruct your logged route with computer
simulation. Very tough.

Furthermore, finding an *entire ship's crew*
willing to keep their lips zipped and go
along with your grossly illegal scheme to
meddle in the affairs of primitive planets
would be tough, too...

[Phantom]

I think John Gill would have been held responsible for breaking General Order 1 on Ecos. He was a civilian working for the Federation Science Council.

[LCM]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
I think John Gill would have been held responsible for breaking General Order 1 on Ecos. He was a civilian working for the Federation Science Council.

</font>

Agreed... but no doubt working for the Federation Science Council requires more strictures be in place than tooling around in a small, one-man ship, a la Cyrano Jones, does.

It might be interesting to have the PCs captain be so appalled at the damage, and being unable to effect change without violating the Prime Directive, that he resigns his commission, takes his privately-owned shuttle, and tools off to help battle evil.

It would, at the least, lead to a very interesting debate, at any rate.

[LCM]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fortunae:
I suggest, respectfully, that you watch Angel One again.</font>

Might I suggest you do the same? Data clearly says something to the effect of, "The Odin crew are not part of Starfleet; the Prime Directive does not apply." This clearly implies that civilians are not bound by that worthy regulation.

[John Raynor]

Re. Legislation of Morality and the P. D.:

The Federation may be an egalitarian society,
but it is also one in which the government
plays a rather active role in shaping
society as a whole, so I'd say that the
"legislation of morality" wouldn't be out of
character.

The best modern-day analogy for the Prime
Directive would, in my opinion, be the laws
protecting endangered species and their
habitats.

[Aedh Rua]

My guess, and it is only an educated guess, is that the Prime Directice as such is only binding on Starfleet, but that there is probably some other law or regulation which effects civilians.

Worf's brother also violated the Prime Directive, and, as a civilian scientist, was treated somewhat differently than a Starfleet officer, as I recall, though it has been a while.

Y'know, a group of Federation civilians who go around interfering in pre-warp cultures for various "benevolent" reasons might make an interesting adversary in a Starfleet Intelligence campaign.

It would get especially interesting when their interventions had really clear justifications, as in the Nazi scenario, but even less justifiable interventions would still lead to some good drama and action.....

------------------
Slan agat!

[Fortunae]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LCM:
Might I suggest you do the same? Data clearly says something to the effect of, "The Odin crew are not part of Starfleet; the Prime Directive does not apply." This clearly implies that civilians are not bound by that worthy regulation. </font>

And when he said that, I was confused and annoyed because I couldn't see how the Prime Directive would have applied in the first place since it wasn't a Pre-Warp culture. What that was, in *my* opinion was a writer who didn't know what the hell they were talking about. Data's statement doesn't matter *because* the planet wasn't a prewarp culture to begin with, so of *course* the Prime Directive didn't apply. Wasn't Angel One a First season episode? Do you think that episode would have been written the same way by season three, let alone season 7? I don't.

But I'll counter your point with another "Canon" resource, canon in the context at least of the LUG Trek game, which I presume the adventure idea that started this thread was based on. Price of Freedom, page 22 says :Perhaps the greatest expression of these values is the Federation's Prime Directive, also known as Starfleet General Order Number 1. The Prime Directive states that Starfleet (and by extension, Federation Personnel and spacecraft) shall not interfere in the normal development of a primitive (non-starfaring) society or culture in any way. Federation personnel willingly sacrifice their equipment, their ships, or even themselves to uphold the Prime Directive, if necessary.

Typically the Prime Directive only applies to pre-warp species, since a race capable of acheiving warp speeds can explore the galaxy and its civilizations on its own, thus "contaminating" itself regardless of the Federation's policy of non-interference. However, even in the case of early pre-warp cultures, the Federation remains reluctant to become too involved. This means that the Federation can approach "First Contact" and early relations with a species deemed "ready" by the Contact Commission from a mutual perspective of trust." -- The Price of Freedom, The Drafting of [Federation] Constitution.

That's pretty "Canon" for me, and I accept that as the way things are to be for the game, you may not, and if so, that is your choice and you are welcome to it.

Peace.

[LCM]

In addition, I believe the Prime Directive is Starfleet General Order One. That should make it even clearer that it's a Starfleet regulation, and not strictly binding on civilians.

It's possible that civilians are, for the most part, simply not allowed into areas wherein they might interfere with such cultures. Starfleet is the exploratory branch; they make the overwhelming majority of first contacts. They evaluate societies; only afterward would civilians have access for the most part. Federation starships, perhaps, intercept and politely ask civilian vessels what business they have in such an area, and gently turn them aside from proceeding if they clearly have none.

I'm not arguing that Federation citizens run around chronically violating the Prime Directive and making Starfleet's job more difficult; no doubt they are, for the most part, respectful of it--even though they're not bound to obey its strictures.

I think it's a little silly, however, to think you could dictate to a private citizen in an egalitarian society such as the Federation on such a point. It delves into the legislation of morality, and as such is a dangerous precedent.

In addition, like members of the military in our societies accept loss of certain personal freedoms to serve their respecitve nations, so do the members of Starfleet. They take an oath to uphold Starfleet's principles; Federation civilians do not.

Considering the actions of Worf's brother, and Picard's reaction to them, it does seem incontroverible that anyone who's given regular access to pre-warp societies is somehow bound to uphold the Prime Directive. Scholars, scientists, and soldiers, though, are a bit different in their perceptions and perspectives than the rank and file.

I think both positions have merit... but I stand by mine.

[LCM]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fortunae:
What that was, in *my* opinion was a writer who didn't know what the hell they were talking about.</font>

That may well be, but since on screen is the strongest canon in the arsenal... your position has a certain logic to it, but it smacks to me ever so slightly of the Voyager afficionados who gloss over Janeway's ethical bankruptcy, and only see the idealized version they want to see. It's there... it's canon... my preference is to make it work within those strictures, not to ignore it. To each his own.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Data's statement doesn't matter because the planet wasn't a prewarp culture to begin with, so of of course the Prime Directive didn't apply.</font>

I certainly didn't get that from "Angel One." Where does it say in that episode that the planet has warp capability? That's a presumption. It may, indeed, be a correct one... but it's a presumption, nonetheless. Certainly we saw a fairly high degree of technology, but no Angelic cruisers intercepted the Enterprise-D en route to Angel One. I tend to think they were a prewarp culture that had had some inadvertent contact, nonetheless. Thus, the "genie was out of the bottle," as Spock might say.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Wasn't "Angel One" a first season episode? Do you think that episode would have been written the same way by season three, let alone season seven? I don't.</font>

The fact that the writers might have made a different decision later doesn't invalidate the earlier, less precise stuff... if it is, indeed, even so.

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">But I'll counter your point with another "canon" resource, canon in the context at least of the LUG Trek game...{/QUOTE]

[Quotes from various LUG Trek products snipped for brevity]

That's pretty "canon" for me, and I accept that as the way things are to be for the game, you may not, and if so, that is your choice and you are welcome to it.</font>

Agreed. I happen to enjoy LUG Trek as a game system, but acknowledge only the material I deem correct as canon for my game. Where my sense of logic conflicts with those of the LUG writers, naturally I'm correct.

I also think intelligent and creative minds can interpret Trek in a vastly different manner--as evidenced by our discussion--with equally validity. We'll agree to disagree, and part ways amicably.

On to other matters. Here's something you might find amusing, Fortunae: My father's name is Fortunato.

I kid you not.