How to beat the Borg???

[Aedh Rua]

In a recent, rather silly discussion, someone pointed out that the crew were advised in "First Contact" to use their phaser rifles as clubs against the Borg, after the drones adapted to their settings.

This isn't exactly news.

It does suggest, however, that the way to beat the Borg is to go at them hand-to-hand. Someone else mentioned that this would expose the soldiers to nanoprobes, which is true, but.....

Picture this strategy: you attack the Borg in space by firing all of your weapons until the Collective adapts, then you kamikaze your ships into the cubes.

If your firing is able to knock down the enemy shields, you board the cubes instead of dive-bomb them. You board them with very large numbers of troops, wearing armor to protect them from nanoprobes, and bearing large "medieval can-opener" type weapons, maces, morning stars, etc.

Once aboard, you take the ship corridor by corridor, expecting to take massive casualties in the process. If any Borg nanoprobes get through someone's armor, you kill your own people, and keep on advancing.

Eventually, all the Borg are dead, the ship is yours, and you are way too tired, and mourning too many dead friends, to celebrate your victory. But at least niether you nor anyone you know is a drone.........

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Slan agat!

[SIR SIG]

While a very nice and epic way to do it.

Its just plain silly



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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[Phantom]

Uhhh, I think you are forgetting one minor point about borg vessels...The big ones carry in EXCESS OF 150,000 drones (IIRC from the Voy. Ep "The Raven). You would need 3 or 4 (more probably) troop carrying vessels to even try this!

My question is given the technological advancement of the borg would they be able to adapt to primative slug throwers (see the Dixon Hill holobook scene in "First Contact")?

[Robert Lai]

My impression is that it would ultimately be futile. The Borg we have seen quickly adapt to beam and particle weapons (i.e. phasers, disruptors).

But we've also seen that the Borg are generally stronger than the average human, and a full-out melee would offer limited success. There is even the possibility they would adapt, presenting more resilient or armored drones, though the strength of numbers is also an issue as pointed out above.

And, since the battle is taking place on the cube, the Borg have the home-field advantage. Nanoprobes are invisible, and can be inhaled or introduced on contact; the obvious counter of environmental integrity fields/suits would minimize team mobility and the effectiveness of a melee attack.

Add up the costs of initial ship loss while firing on the cube, and cauterizing any away team losses immediately, the plan would likely be voted down as a suicide tactic.

Bob

[This message has been edited by Robert Lai (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aedh Rua:
You board them with very large numbers of troops, wearing armor to protect them from nanoprobes, </font>

Bear in mind that nano-probes work on a cellular level, and at that point the armour offers no protection at all.

Kind of like using chainmail to protect against a syringe needle.

The nano-probes simply pass around the molecules that compose the armour, or even assimilate the armour around you, making you a tactical drone in the process...

Suddenly your shock troops are a bigger problem to your invasion forces.

To be blunt, the easiest way to encounter the borg is to do nothing and avoid them. As long as they are the TNG Borg, up to and including First Contact, once they have achieve optimum conditions they will not start hostilities and only attack if your group is a perceived threat.

So walk through them calmly, get to the lifepods and encrypt the computer after beginning multiple self destruct sequences.


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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Calcoran]

AFAICT, this was intended to be one (suicide attack). On the bright side, one may add that Borgs are never pictured as overly fast and agile. Strong, yes, but slow (all right, it's because it looked better on TV, but still). This gives a definite advantage to the attacking troops. Of course there are all the points raised before that'll make their job harder, but I still don't think the borgs can adapt to can-openers.
Besides, this cannot possibly have been envisioned as a Starfleet tactic. For once starfleet troops are probably not all can-opener specialists, and more importantly, can you imagine them killing any comrade on the verge of being assimilated? Nah. Klingons on the other bat'leth ... they would probably have a go ...

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Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms)

[Evan van Eyk]

Well at least it former times the Borg had no shields on their ships and I think they cannot adapt to starship weapons, which would give the Federation a hint.
But I would not board a Borgship with Maces, or at least not only. How about a MP? I remember also this rifle that Dax used in one of the DS9 Episodes to kill the sniper. Well this should work to, shouldn't it? Even if the Borg can adapt against this weapon you could beam the bullet inside the head and then, well it makes it way outside again.

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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[Dan Gurden]

That tactic might work a few times Evan, but the Borg should be truely scary, and as such would adapt, probably with a transport dampening field.

Such a weapon would have to be used when the Borg dis-engaged the field to be transported in or out.

And then they would adapt to the frequency. Battling the Borg should be a game of one upmanship... and sooner or later you run out of options or personnel.

Thats how the Borg work.

Re: Picards TommyGun Attack
I am of the opinion that the Borg can, and should, be able to adjust to projectile weapons.

Under the exact circumstances of the weapons use, Picards TommyGun would probably not have worked a second time. As the Borg adapted to the holographic matrix.
The events in 'First Contact' were in fact an elaborate energy weapon.

Using real projectile weapons would probably also affect the Borg, but they would simply adapt with stronger personal shielding. The downside of this is that you cannot change the frequency of a bullet. (I will accept that this adaption may take longer than vs. Energy Weapons)

You can get a bigger calibre, but sooner or later you end up using up all your options.

This way the Borg remain scary, and the Voyager effect doen't come into effect. Which IMHO is how they should be... Players should be scared when the Borg are mentioned... Scared and creative.


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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
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[mactavish]

I am of the belief that the best way to defeat the Borg is quite possibly simply unavailable to "lesser" races and organizations.

Trickery and computer viruses are all well and good, but if the Borg adapt, then they would certainly [eventually] adapt to something like that, don't you think?

I am of the opinion that an immensely powerful psionic or group of psionics would best be able to deal with the Collective. High-powered cyberpaths, electrokinetics, telekinetics, and other useful psionic Skills would definitely provide an edge against the Borg, particularly if the group was well-versed in methodologies related to dealing with them.

Another group capable of dealing with the Collective is the "Think Tank" from Voyager. They made mention of the fact that they saved a world from assimilation by the Borg, most likely through the use of exceptionally advanced technologies.

I've toyed with having the Think Tank find their way to UFP space and offer the Federation a way to defeat an impending invasion (for which the Think Tank provided the impetus by "accidentally" providing technology to the Collective). Their motivation, of course, is revenge against Voyager (now returned to the AQ), the acquisition of 7 of 9 (or maybe Data or another similarly unique individual), and/or the acquisition of a new technology of some sort (which, of course, is completely vital to the survival of the UFP).

In the end, I'd say that the Collective can be defeated only when it serves the purpose of the Episode/Series. Otherwise the Collective is as close as you can get to the fabled "irresistable force"; the juggernaut that cannot be stopped. Isn't that what they were created for anyway?

mactavish out.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
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[Aedh Rua]

A couple of points: I think you are right, though I forget which who it was, that the Borg are probably just too strong for Humans to handle in hand-to-hand, but that Klingons could make my plan have at least a chance. Romulans might could do it, too.

You need someone very strong and fast, and, yes, the Borg might adapt. I think there is reason for thinking that Borg nanoprobes have to be injected, or else they would have tried "assimilation gas" already.

As for 150,000 troops per cube, well that just puts the size of the battle, and the casualties, into 20th century norms. Given that a bat'leth is supposedly made of hull metal, one could probably kill a Borg with it. Given that Klingons are as strong as Borg, and a lot faster, you are looking at something like 2 or 3 to 1 kill ratios. This means anything from 50,000 to 100,000 casualties per cube. For a fleet of twenty cubes, that's one or two million, which makes it a Stalingrad size battle.

I hate to sound really cold blooded, but given the kind of threat the Borg present to everyone else in the galaxy, those are acceptable casualties.

You could minimize this with the kamikaze thing. A Klingon Bird of Prey carries a crew of, what, about twenty, I think, but you probably fly it with three fearless volunteers. One bird of prey, stuffed to the gills with photon torpedos, or maybe some wierd Romulan-designed plasma thing, could probably take out a cube on impact. That's three of your guys for 150,000 of the enemy. Those are REALLY, REALLY acceptable casualties.

It at least makes a fun discussion, nach e?

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Slan agat!

[This message has been edited by Aedh Rua (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Aedh Rua]

Sorry to double post, but I am just thinking that this plan could form the theme of one heck of a blood-and-thunder Klingon episode.

Let's assume that a Borg fleet or twenty cubes invades the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Martok, knowing that the Feds are bled white by the Dominion War, and wanting to gain glory for the Empire, comes up with this plan and sells it to the Allies.

Now, we have several groups of PCs, though a few of them will star in very short episodes, indeed. The Birds of Prey go in a wave out front of the main fleet, each one manned by three old warriors looking for a chance to die gloriously. Behind it comes the main battle fleet, with enough troops to take out the whole Borg fleet, though the real idea is to capture any cubes left after the kamikaze wave.

The Birds of Prey fire waves of torpedos and distruptors until they knock even a small hole in the shields of the Borg cubes, then they go to warp, right down the Borgs' metallic throats.

A few cubes, or maybe a lot, are able to keep enough of their shields to take out the kamikazes. So, then, the troop carriers and battle cruisers do their part to open holes, and begin transporting at least 100,000 warriors onto each cube.

Then, the fun starts.

You will have to tell your players, who are probably a squad of Poor Bloody Infantry, that they are very, very likely to die gloriously in this adventure. And, of course, there is the sideline fun of playing one of the old warriors diving into a cube.

But, otherwise, the adventure has that Enemy at the Gates, wearing a Full Metal Jacket feel, a real old style war story, with head ridges.

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Slan agat!

[This message has been edited by Aedh Rua (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Evan van Eyk]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
I am of the opinion that the Borg can, and should, be able to adjust to projectile weapons.
</font>

But how should this work? Bullets do not have frequencies ( although some quantum-physics theories might suggest so ).


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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[Hirlindale]

Perhap the Borg have a deep down fear of ships ramming them hence we have never heard of a Borg invasion of the Dominion. (Could they assimilate a shapeshifter?)
As for melee weapons maybe this is also why we have seen no Large scale incursions into Klingon Space.