How to beat the Borg???

[calguard66]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Robert Lai:
My impression is that it would ultimately be futile. The Borg we have seen quickly adapt to beam and particle weapons (i.e. phasers, disruptors).

But we've also seen that the Borg are generally stronger than the average human, and a full-out melee would offer limited success. There is even the possibility they would adapt, presenting more resilient or armored drones, though the strength of numbers is also an issue as pointed out above.

[This message has been edited by Robert Lai (edited 06-20-2001).]</font>

It has been stated before that the only attack form which has been used repeatedly against the Borg, and never adapted to, is primative kinetic energy weapons.

While it doesn't provide an answer to ship-to-ship combat, berhaps the V'Ket is the answer to the Borg?

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by calguard66:
It has been stated before that the only attack form which has been used repeatedly against the Borg, and never adapted to, is primative kinetic energy weapons.</font>

Where was this stated? I have only heard this from fans, never in an episode?

Can you show me where I missed it?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aedh Rua:
. I think there is reason for thinking that Borg nanoprobes have to be injected, or else they would have tried "assimilation gas" already.</font>

In 'Dark Frontier' the Borg a planning just this... An assimilation bomb that would gradually assimilate Earth before we realise what is happening to us...

In my opinion, Injecting into a victim is just so much faster than absorbtiopn, and uses the targets own blood flow against them...



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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Phantom]

I was thinking about your ramming tactic, I don't dipute that it would work. However, I think a modification could work a little more "efficiently". The old concept of the Fire ship. Have the fleet fire everything they have at the shields to bring them down, then send in a small fleet of "Fire ships", older designs (there goes what left of the Mirandas ) loaded to bursting with AM, tricobalt bombs, sigularity torpedoes and anything else that makes nice pretty explosions and pilot them in on remote control. That way you don't throw a perfectly good crew away, and you still get the results you want...one very mangled Cube. You might also get lucky enough and put a dent in the superior numbers problem. I still wouldn't like to beam over to a borg ship, damaged or not, and start to make trouble.



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In the Praetors Name!

[Aedh Rua]

Phantom: Yeah, that is a better use of people, no question about it. This would alter the nature of the attack a little bit, in that most cubes would lose their shields, and then would get boarded, but would probably a lot easier to take with half the crew dead or floundering about in space.

Dan: Even if the assimilation gas appears in a novel, I still think it doesn't fit with my understanding of canon Borg. Seeing that you do see it that way, and that this is hardly a matter of deep and abiding principles, I think we must agree to disagree.

Everyone else: On the other hand, those who of you who have been pointing out that the Borg probably faced this before are probably right. No doubt, they would find a way to adapt. Still, it was an idea, and might still work for one battle.........

Hmm, we might have to think about higher tech solutions. Maybe some kind of nanoprobes of our own? To be disassembled at the molecular level into one's component elements has to suck, even for the Borg.......

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Slan agat!

[This message has been edited by Aedh Rua (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Robert Lai]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aedh Rua:
Dan: Even if the assimilation gas appears in a novel, I still think it doesn't fit with my understanding of canon Borg. Seeing that you do see it that way, and that this is hardly a matter of deep and abiding principles, I think we must agree to disagree.</font>

I could easily see 'assimilation gas' as a broad-range solution routinely used in the final stages of assimilating an entire world. (Even with a geometric progression, point-to-point assimilation of a global population is inefficient at best.)

And the gas is little more than airborne nanoprobes, aspirated instead of injected.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">On the other hand, those who of you who have been pointing out that the Borg probably faced this before are probably right. No doubt, they would find a way to adapt. Still, it was an idea, and might still work for one battle ...

</font>

Then the one battle would have to be so significant as to severely cripple the Borg, buying time at an immense cost in lives. Since most encounters are against one or two cubes, even a complete success would not significantly decrease Borg numbers, or grant more than a year or two of grace.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Hmm, we might have to think about higher tech solutions. Maybe some kind of nanoprobes of our own? To be disassembled at the molecular level into one's component elements has to suck, even for the Borg ...

</font>

Unleashing nanoprobes of our own would likely escalate into a war of attrition. Also, with the technology being used so extensively by the Borg, it is also likely that their understanding of key concepts is far superior.

Nanoprobes, to be effective, often have a self-replicating directive (multiply until sufficient numbers to achieve primary goal are attained). They are also difficult to deactivate or stop for that reason, as a single probe would still possess the full capability for continuing the mission. Now, imagine a Borg nanoprobe assimilating our own counter-probe (we've seen Seven of Nine attempt to control other devices through similar means) -- our means of victory has just become our downfall.

This does not preclude trying any or all of these strategies in a game. Whether they work, and to what extent ... depends on the Narrator and his/her plans for the Borg.

Keep in mind, however, that this same conundrum - the premise that the means to defeat the Borg MUST exist - led to some pretty silly evolutions in the Voyager saga.

Bob

[Phantom]

Depending on if you take Voyager as canon or not, there was a two parter centering on the borg. The borg Queen arranged for Seven to come back to the collective, not to be assimilated but to help in the assimilation of Earth. In that ep. the Queen said that they were designing a Biogenic weapon that when detonated in the atmosphere of Earth it would spread the nanoprobes across the globe. Assimialting everyone. Not the most efficient way to do the job, it was noted that it would take several years, but it would have done the trick.

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In the Praetors Name!

[John Raynor]

Re. Borg Adaptation to Bullets

Bullets may not have frequencies, but I
believe there is plenty of evidence that
Borg drones can generate personal deflector
shields, and stopping physical projectiles
with deflector shields are easy (after all,
deflector shields are closely related to the
navigation deflectors used to turn those
pesky micro-meteorites aside).

I can easily envision the Borg optimizing
their personal deflectors for bullets with
a particular mass, shape, speed, chemical
composition, and so forth.

The Borg have been around for a *long* time,
and they have *lots* of enemies. Just about
*everything* has been thrown at them at some
point or another in their long history, and
they *don't* forget. The solution to just
about *every* tactical problem is in their
massive collective database, somewhere. If
something "itches," they *will* figure out
(or just *remember*) how to "scratch" it...

[Paul]

IMHO, the Borg would react thusly:

Energy weapons, all types: Analyze and adapt. Weapon rendered useless. You might get off one or two shots per weapon present before the Borg work out how to nullify the weapon frequencies.

Projectile Weapons, all types: Analyze and adapt function partially circumvented. The Collective has to work out how to defeat kinetic energy, something they can't analyze until it hits them - but the kinetic energy inherent in each attack from any type of projectile weapon will change from one attack to the next. Very difficult to adapt to. Borg drones have shown no ability to generate forcefeilds (thank the Gods! ), so the best defence the drones have is their enhanced healing abilities and their sheer strength of numbers.

Hand-to-hand combat: Suicide. The Borg are not noted for their walking pace, so you will be able to outrun them...for a short time. Problem is, drones do not suffer from fatigue or tiredness...we do. They will wear you down. Drones are hard to kill one-on-one...and kill is what you must do to make sure he doesn't follow you.

Just my two cents' worth...

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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aedh Rua:
Dan: Even if the assimilation gas appears in a novel, I still think it doesn't fit with my understanding of canon Borg. Seeing that you do see it that way, and that this is hardly a matter of deep and abiding principles, I think we must agree to disagree.

</font>

What novel? Dark Frontier is a 2-part Voyager episode, therefore (Officially, if not morally) canon. The same episode Phantom is talking about.



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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Karg]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paul:


Projectile Weapons, all types:~~ Borg drones have shown no ability to generate forcefeilds (thank the Gods! ),

</font>

Actually They do, See the 1st episode with the borg " Q-Who". They are clearly generating thier own Forcefields.

However that is not to say that they can adapt to kinetic energy specificly for the reasons you mention

Karg



[This message has been edited by Karg (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Michael Brinkhues]

Everyone is throwing HE at the poooor lil Borgies. Why?

I mean, why use explosives when you have rocks (or massiv, slow warping KE-missiles) Just launch and remote-pilot the equivalent of heavily shielded and armed shuttles at the borg at slow warp and ram them. Since a Jemmie ship destroyed a planet that way in DS9, a bunch of this missiles should anilate a Cube. And if you use enough of those with some jammers and decoys, the relatively few weapons a cube has will be overloaded soon.

To make it more difficult for the Tinman add:

An AM/M bomb with a lifesign generator (looks like a beeing in there. Lets beam it abord and assimilate it)

Lot's of towed jammers (Wheres the missile?)


Michael

And yes, I read to much Honor Harrington.

[Aedh Rua]

Sorry about the mistake with the episode. The title resembled that of a novel, and I haven't actually seen that particular Voyager, so I didn't know about the gas.

That is very bad news for the whole galaxy. If the Borg can assimilate whole races that easily, then they are probably unstoppable, at least in the long run.

Ok, there are a couple of races who have resisted the Borg, the Krenim among 'em. How did they do it?

If the Krenim method is not feasable over the long haul, and there is no reason to believe that it is, then there are really two alternatives:

1. Beg the Q or the Dowd or someone like that for help, please!

2. Violate the Temporal Prime Directive, and damn the consequences.

Sounds like Star Trek has written itself into a corner........

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Slan agat!

[Robert Lai]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aedh Rua:
That is very bad news for the whole galaxy. If the Borg can assimilate whole races that easily, then they are probably unstoppable, at least in the long run.</font>

Resistance is futile.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Ok, there are a couple of races who have resisted the Borg, the Krenim among 'em. How did they do it?</font>

I only caught part of the Krenim two-parter, and missed any line referring to resisting the Borg.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">1. Beg the Q or the Dowd or someone like that for help, please!

2. Violate the Temporal Prime Directive, and damn the consequences.</font>

While you could argue the Borg 'awareness' of our species was prematurely raised by Q, there is no guarantee the Q would help resolve the situation. What do you offer a theoretically omnipotent group in exchange for their help?

(Picard: "You would have our gratitude.")

As for the Temporal Directive, what would you change in the past that would prevent the current dilemma without significantly changing the future? Remove that first encounter, and 'Best of Both Worlds' would not happen, nor would the Battle of Wolf 359 ... suddenly, there's a fleet of ships that were never destroyed, people who never died, and other events that never happened.

But wait! Maybe there's a bright spot! That would mean Voyager is the first to encounter the Borg, Janeway has no clue as to what she's up against, the Borg assimilate Voyager .... ;D

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Sounds like Star Trek has written itself into a corner........</font>

I don't think the Borg, per se, is the problem, but the overuse of the Borg in Voyager. Borg this, Borg that, de-borged kids, former UniMatrix buddies of Seven ...

And to that extent, they did write themselves into a corner, raising expectations of success in each encounter. If the Borg really wanted Voyager, they'd have it. The cat-and-mouse nonsense between the Queen and Voyager/Janeway/Seven ... was ultimately silly. (Borg play with their food?)

Bob

[Aedh Rua]

Actually, as far as time travel goes, what I had in mind was to locate the Borg homeworld, go back to a time before the Collective, and then to paste it thoroughly with everything available.

If you kill every cell of life on the planet, there is no way you could accidentally cause the Collective to come into being. This is a very massive war crime, of course, on an almost unimaginable scale, but it would save thousands of races from being assimilated.

The Gods only know what that would do to galactic history. Roughly 17,000 years of development in the Delta Quadrant have just changed. This will almost certainly have ripple effects into the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, probably effecting all aorts of random things before the Star Trek era.

To use one example, the El Aurians survive as a race. What does this do to the wanderings of Guinan and others, which included 19th century Earth? Does it then effect Earth history? Probably, but no one will be able to tell how until the change is made.

It's the sort of thing you don't do until the Borg are about to really win the war, and you have little or nothing to lose.....

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Slan agat!

[Paul]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Karg:
Actually They do, See the 1st episode with the borg " Q-Who". They are clearly generating thier own Forcefields.
</font>

For mine, that "forcefield" you mention is merely a bad special effect...we also see the same blocky forcefield in BOBW. The rogue Borg from Descent show no such ability to generate forcefields...nor the ability to "analyze and adapt". We also see the "forcefield" effect in ST:FC, and is is much sweeter... I would reason that the effect we see on screen is not a forcefield per se that is capable of screening kinetic energy and projectiles the same way as starship deflector shields do...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aedh Rua:
2. Violate the Temporal Prime Directive, and damn the consequences.</font>

That is pretty drastic, and definitely a "we've got nothing to else lose, it's this or nothing" action. By destroying the Collective before it begins, you are effectively re-writing 17,000 of Galactic History. It'd be a very brave Narrator that allows this one to go through... What's to say that one of those many races assimilated by the Borg might not, if not assimilated, go on a xenophobic quest to purge the Galaxy of all life?

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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)