The Far Future

[Dan Stack]

From webster's:

Communism: 1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively


Socialism: 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Based on that, it's a bit tough to say which the Federation is. If you take communism to mean elimination of all private property, it would seem closer to socialism - there is still some ownership of goods - Picard's flute, personal bottles of wine, Sisko's baseball, etc. But not a whole lot. On the communist side, goods are held in common by the Federation and distriubted as needed. You could probably make a case for either.

Sorry for the wild tangent, though I must say I am interested in what people have had to say regarding this.

[REG]

<font color="red">Despite what I've posted about the TNG era Federation, I think that the Federation as originally conceived of by Gene Roddenberry back in the TOS era was a decent idea. It was less sanctimonious, less socialist, and less "holier than thou."</font>

While I may (and I emphasize "may") agree with two of your reasons above, the humanocentric Federation has been holier than thou, if not haughtier. It was the most utopian futuristic society humanity has ever reached, even in TOS. While the ideals of the Federation is great (about as ideal as the United States of America), their governmental policies has been lackluster, almost hypocritical.

Besides, who says that joining the Federation would be the only good thing any nonhuman civilization they could do?

And I'm sorry, Cochrane, but joining the Federation is not like becoming a member of the United Nations but becoming a member state of the USA. At least with the United Nations, you can retain your sovereign and cultural identity. With USA, you give up all rights to any government that does not conform to the ideas of the democracy. If that were the case, Hawaii would have retain its monarchy government, which is the antithesis of the American democratic philosophy (as history have shown).

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[Dan Stack]

Looking at TOS, the Federation seems to me to be a bit less closely nit - for example, look at the big disupute regarding the admisison of Babel - suspicion that the Tellarites are looking after their own interests above those of others - something one would not find in the TNG Federation.

I've tended to view the early Federation as similar to the early United States - an alliance, a common navy, but loyalty split between Federation and homeworld. The TNG Federation seems to be far more Federalized. One could postulate a 29th century Federation would be even more centralized - with faster communications and travel, a Federal government is able to become far more powerful.

[Caretaker]

Hmm... the Peacekeepers have a certain appeal to them. Yeah, it's SO much better than the Federation.


Just kidding, for anyone who thought I was serious about the PKs being better.

[Phantom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Stack:
From webster's:
Based on that, it's a bit tough to say which the Federation is. If you take communism to mean elimination of all private property, it would seem closer to socialism - there is still some ownership of goods - Picard's flute, personal bottles of wine, Sisko's baseball, etc. But not a whole lot. On the communist side, goods are held in common by the Federation and distriubted as needed. You could probably make a case for either.

.</font>

I don't see that. When you see the quarters of the various characters there are personal items all over the place, from Livingston(Picard's fish) to Data's Poker Set. These are all owned items. Ok they are small items but I don't see anyone getting permission to bring their car with them on a mission. People still own property and homes and all that goes with them.

The Federation is simply an ideology where everyone can achieve or OWN whatever they want, within the standard of law we have today. If you want to be a lawyer...You have the chance, if you want to join SF...you have the chance, if you want to own the cottage in the woods replicate what you need. It has been stated that most of the Federations citizens have access to replicator tech. I believe the Romulans are the only one who restrict rep. Tech to the military...They still have a monetary system. All the Federation has done is get rid of things like poverty, homelessness and the power of the all mighty buck. There are still private business...other wise there could not be organized crime within the Federation (I am not connecting crime with private business I only use it as an example of the foothold it can give to those organizations). It is a Utopian Society (which does LEANINGS toward socialism...But doesn't cross the line) and it is certainly not Communistic.

[Cochrane]

I don't think economics has to be a hugely important part of politics. The invention of replication, after TOS, changes everything. In TOS, I'd say 99.9% of Starfleet was human. In TNG I'd say it's at most 90%, and that only if you stick to what's onscreen. If one era is less tolerant of others, it's TOS. I'm not sure though, but I think the aliens themselves decided not to join the Fleet. The Ferengi are greedy. Is greed a good thing? I honestly think DS9 shattered Roddenberry's parameters.

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The Trekkie Formerly Known As Surak, AKA The Coch, Humble Creator of the Bwuutut and Mensaeans, Aba and Zwickau, and the Perseus Federation, Guy Who Still Hasn't Actually Played The Game, And Who Finally Decided To Use A Signature.

[AslanC]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cochrane:
I don't think economics has to be a hugely important part of politics.</font>

Well you might not think it, but it is. In fact economics is replacing the concept of nationality and individual countries. Why do you think people riot against these "world trade" summits? The fear is that when Economic powers become able to ignore the civil rules, environemental rules and even religious rules of nations, human rights can get lost.

The Federation has undone this fear by getting rid of economics and making materialisim a thing of the past.

Now none of us on this planet can understand this syetm since it has never exisited. We can debate it from now until the end of time, but until we have a working model of a socity with unlimited energy resources to power "artifact creators" we can only throw around words liek comunisim, democracy, solcialisim, totalitarianisim, etc...my thought is that there would be a whole new word for what the Federation is, a "sentiantarinist" socitey for lack of a better term (but I encourgae all to give it a try).

The ideal of the Federation is that all individual cultures are important and must be cultivated. Protected and nurished. But first they must achieve a level of "sentient rights" and "moral correctness" laid out as the definition of what the Federation is. Are they going to look down their noses at other cultures? Sure, if they percieve them as less developed they will see them as something to be studied or avoided, or even guided if close enough to making the big step.

This happens today, in a myriad of cultures on Earth. Have you ever sat in a room of Canadians talking about Americans? Or have you ever been on the reciving end of an "Ugly American?". What about the reputation for American's treatment in France since the war? The English take on "provincial colonies"?

Not (by a longshot) every member of these socities are this way, but enough are that a reputation has developed. I see it as no different then the Federation's moral and sentient sense of superiority.

Is it right? I would think not. Is it a part of their world that makes them bad? No. To judge a socity, one must measure they good they produce vs the bad. The Federation, being a very moral (depsite their guidelines) organization tries to do what is best for everyone or leave them alone. If not the mighty Starfleet would be landing on planets and setting up parliments for everyone and teaching them "their" ways. We saw this on our own world with the Romans and the English Empire, etc...

Is the Federation stagnant? Yes. It has become a dying thing. The Dominion War could have been a catalyst to show the Federation that it was weakened and limping, but she had enough fight in her (with the serious aid of the Romulans and Klingons and the turn of the Cardassians, 3 not so sentient rights concerned governments) to survive.

UFP citizens cannot make the mistake of thinking that wining the DW assured them a ticket to the 29th century. It was but the first test, many more come and not all will be passed.

(back on topic)

If there is a Federation in the 29th century I think it will be a reformed Federation after having been lost in the 25th or 26th century. Maybe the 27th and 28th centuries have no Federation and it is only in the 29th century it is reformed.

As plausible an idea as any I would guess.

Sorry if I seem all over the map, just getting out what is in my head after reading 36 posts.

This topic again shows why I love these boards. There is much intelligence and maturity here and that more than anything else is the idea of Star Trek for me.

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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
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Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[This message has been edited by AslanC (edited 06-06-2001).]

[DR]

I always thought that that line of thinking could be a great game/campaign. The “McCarthyism/Politically Correct” Federation faction has take over control of the Federation Government. A civil war insues over control of the fed.

[Aedh Rua]

Hmm, this topic can get heated, but then it does go to the heart of the appeal of Star Trek. A couple of comments:

1. I detect a lot of friction around the proper application of terms like "Communist" and "Socialist", and whether these apply to the Federation. Given the really incredible technological differences between the Feds and the present day, I would suggest that these terms are actually meaningless. It is a lot like trying to ask whether pre-Revolutionary France was "socialist" because of the government's strong role in the economy. The structural and social differences mean that that type of analysis just doesn't work.

2. Likewise, it is hard to argue about whether forced tolerance is more intolerant than tolerance of intolerance. The TOS Federation was pretty rough around the edges, but very capable of beating up on cultures it didn't like. The TNG Federation was a lot smoother, a lot smugger, and rather more hypocritical. BOTH were very capable of running roughshod over individual rights, though the TOS Federation tended to be more passionate in such cases, and the TNG Federation rather more ideological.

3. I don't think that anyone could argue that it is better to live under Klingon, Romulan, or other rule than under the Federation, in any era. The Feds would have to decline a long way, indeed, before they offered their citizens less than the subject races of most empires. For this reason, the Feds will have a great advantage over most empires, even in the 29th century, namely, the long term loyalty of most of its rank and file.

4. On the other hand, most of the direction of the Federation's evolution in the TNG era seems to me to be toward what used to be called "decadence". Certainly, the Federation is more homogenous, more awash in luxury, less inclined toward tolerating the taking of risks, less inclined toward pure exploration, and less questioning of its own ideals. The holodeck alone is an example of this. Can you imagine what Kirk would say about the thing? I am surprised that no one has noticed how much the holodeck resembles what happened to the Talosians.

5. Part of the reason for this kind of cultural development may be that the Federation is surrounded. This isn't proven, of course, and big frontier zones are assumed to exist in LUG-Trek, but still the Feds have much less room for expansion than in the TOS era.

All of which brings me to my prediction about the Federation in the 29th century. Far from being huge and dominant, the 29th century Federation may be relatively small, not a whole lot bigger than in the 24th. In such a scenario, it may well be quite decadent, very addicted to luxury, and culturally almost totally homogenized. Far rom being a Communist-style dictatorship, however, I would think that its government would continue in the flabby, smug outlines of the past, maybe with extra layers of bureaucracy.

In such a future, the great powers of the galaxy may well be someone other than the Feds, proabably someone a lot less nice by our standards.

Who this would be, I don't know. The Klingons seems well able to avoid decadence, but are rather too lame-brained to get and keep a technological advantage. The Romulans and Cardassians seem to be undergoing severe problems in the 24th century which probably put them out of the running for the far future.

The Dominion, as unpleasant as it is, seems to have the needed focus and technlogical edge, as do the Krenim. LUG's own Taurhai might also have some advantages.

The Borg are like a giant wave engulfing the galaxy, which will probably eventually force the other powers into alliance against it. This could result in the First Galactic War, in which the Borg go down in a dramatic Third Reich style apocalypse, maybe a couple of centuries after the end of the Dominion War.

Hmmm. Maybe a 29th century in which the Feds are part of a Taurhai-dominated Alliance of Alpha and Beta Quandrant Powers facing off in a three-way cold war against the Krenim and Dominion. At this stage of history, all of the major, and most of the minor powers have been around for centuries, and the cold war itself has lasted for something like 300 years.

If there hasn't been a Second Galactic War by this time, then chances are the Taurhai, Krenim, and Dominion actually cooperate a great deal, and have a sort of detente, based mostly on cynicism and intertia.

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Slan agat!

[Cdr Scot II]

I agree that using terms like socialist or communist in relation to a utopian society like the Federation is about as relevant as calling calling a modern presidential democracy a feudal monarchy - superficially similar traits but the resemblances are coincidental. I also disagree with the view of the Federation as a decadent inward society: one of the key characteristics of the TNG Federation is that it seems to have a population motivated by both a personal and a civic ethic of development and contribution to the whole. It's an "intellectualist" utopia, for want of a better term - a geek utopia, except the geeks all have social skills (except for Reg Barclay) . There's an inherent resistance to decadence and stagnation because it contravenes the social ethos that drives the average citizen.

Hey, it's fiction - it's allowed a little unwarranted idealism.

For another view of a utopia where all Maslow's needs are supported free of charge, I can strongly recommend Iain M Banks' "Culture" series of SF novels. I understand that they're not that easy to get a hold of in the US, but they are interesting as a Euro-centric view of Space Opera rather than the standard US one. If you liked the Peter F Hamilton Nights Dawn series you'll probably like Mr Banks too .

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"...and no, I don't play the bagpipes either!"

[Phantom]

Just a couple of quick questions here. Not really on the subject of Comm/Socialism in the Fed. but anyway...

Alot of people here have mentioned that the Taurhai would probably takeover a good chunk of the Romulan Empire!?!?! Now, as a fan of the Romulans I ask WHY? If the Feds can ward off the Borg I think the Romulans can hold off the Taurhai...They've been doing it for about a hundred years when they return as a power in the series.

Also, how would the races like the Krenim figure into anything that happens in the Alpha Quad?

[John Raynor]

The "far future" of the "Star Trek" universe
is probably going to be *very* strange.

At some point, the technological barriers
preventing the faithful replication of living
things are going to come down.

At some point, Soong's positronic brain
technology is going to become reliable and
widely understood.

Non-positronic (holographic) artifical
intelligence is going to develop rapidly.
The software that controls a hologram should
have no trouble controlling a robotic body.

At some point, nanotechnology is going to
cease to be a laboratory curiosity (with
limited biomedical applications). If the
Federation tangles with the Borg, the growth
of its understanding of nanotechnology will,
in all likelihood, be further accelerated.

The Federation has a widespread fondness for "self-improvement." Given this handful
of technological loose ends (and I'm sure
there are others I've overlooked), its easy
to envision a drift towards "trans-human"
existence of some kind (without Borg-style
loss of individuality) in "Star Trek's"
not-too-distant future. The Eugenics Wars
might have cast a long shadow, but I just
can't see their influence lasting *forever*.

[mactavish]

Unlike the Collective, which assimilates its victims, the Taurhai are far more creative thinkers. The Romulans - for all their bravado - are inferior to the Taurhai both technologically and intellectually (at least in my opinion).

The Taurhai haven't opened up a can of whupass on the Romulan Star Empire as yet because they are biding their time. The Romulans are facing ever-growing internal struggles to "keep it together," but the reunification movement is growing stronger every day.

Once the Taurhai begin to smell the scent of death on the Empire, then they will begin to close in for the kill.

The Borg are relentless, throwing drones and ships at a situation until only one side remains. The Taurhai are far more strategic... they realize how devious the Romulans are and are aware that their tactics need to take that into account.

In my various campaigns, the Romulan Senate begins to buckle from the strain of holding together and empire coming apart at the seams. Realizing that the Romulans are in need of "assistance," the Taurhai Unity sweeps in and, after a heninous, drawn-out war, occupies Romulus and Remus as well as various other planets and star systems.

Would the Federation or the Klingon Empire assist the Romulans? Would the Senate and/or the Proconsul even ask for their help? Uncertain.

Will the Romulan Star Empire fall? Yes... at least in my campaign. When? Very soon.

mactavish out.

P.S. Just imagine a Romulan Maquis-style rebellion fighting against the Taurhai conquerers with the assistance/support of the UFP, the Klingons, and/or the Cardassians. That's just all kinds of fun!

[Phantom]

Sounds like a neat campaign. Is it a Romulan game, or is this happening in the background?

I do, however, have to say that I personally don't agree with your line of thought...As interesting as it is. Reading the Way of D'era the Star Empire is still strong, only one problem sector they have to deal with. Sure the Senate is fractured along coalition lines and the in-fighting that goes with that. But, the one thing that all Romulans can understand is the preservation of the Empire. The Taurhai are a threat, yes. No more so then the Barbarian Hoards Rome had to deal with. The Empire will fall of course, all civilizations do at one time, but that time has not came yet for the Romulans.

There, having said that I would be interested in hearing how your game progresses. I'm sure the Romulans will go out with a bang.

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

I'd disagree with you mactavish, The Taurhai would face a united Romulan Empire if they'd attack. Its called a "Rally around the Flag effect" and occurs whenever a state is threatened by an outside threat. Maybe another Kligon alliance?

As for whether the Federation is communist or socialist, i'd say they are an enlightened socialist democracy. Communism would never occur in such a far flung empire, strains the bureaucracy and overall doesn't work very well. Look at Russia, Poland, all the ex-communist countries.

I am rather a pessimist so I see the Feds as rather snobbish, all those comments on the Ferengi and the various phrases spoken by individuals brought up by previous posts shows that.

All democracies(Feds are a democracy) are prone to demagogic subversions. The Greek Hitorian Thucydides shows this in his book "On Justice, Power and Human Nature". It doesn't matter how advanced a society is, certain things stay the same, people want power(alien or human). Subverting the feds ala Section 31 is a natural process of as the previous posts have put it decadence. And I agree, I'd like to see the feds collapse and a civil war erupt between idealists and realists.

Its my opinion anyone can disagree, I even welcome it