Star Trek Voyager: Liscence to neuter good villains.

[lone wolf]

Has anyone else noticed how it's not just the Borg who have been neutered by the idiots who(for lack of a better term) write Voyager. For example:

SPECIES 8472: In Scorpion they slaughter Borg left, right and center, they force Voyager to form a alliance with the Borg and they generally provide a nice excuse to bring a good looking blonde onto the show. In In the Flesh these extraordinarily hard aliens are reduced to creating a copy of Starfleet Command to infiltrate the Alpha Quadrant.

Uhhh,yeah!

Q: In Encounter at Farpoint and most of TNG Q is a threat and causes a whole lot of hassle for the Feds by bringing them to the attention of the Borg. In DS9 he causes more hassle. In Voyager, he starts off well and then tries to finger Janeway then drops off his son for Janeway to baby-sit. Come on.

If anyone has any other examples please post them.

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Kid Mama-san, what do they call that thing they shoot the cats out of?
Mama-san I'm not sure, but I think they call it a catapult.
Kid Boy, I'm glad I didn't have to say that line...

Samurai Pizza Cats

[Evan van Eyk]

What I think is, that they intended to create a large scale conflict between the Borg and Süecies 8472, but they probably reconsidered as there was also the Dominion War in DS9. Two Wars was probably to much for one audience.

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"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[Cessna]

Face it, people, ALL of Trek has neutered villains. Always. That’s the whole point or Roddenberry’s ethos – “The bad guys weren’t so bad after all” is a central theme in Trek. In his idealistic vision, no enemy will be an enemy once they’re "understood…"

More examples –

Klingons - Evil, conniving, treacherous, cruel “Mongol hordes with ray guns” in the TOS era become honor-bound sympathetic samurai in the TNG era.

Romulans – Start off as villains, but become “watered down” over time. We’re told that the Romulan people aren’t villains, it’s just the government and the secret police that are mean. Riiiight.

Ferengi – Supposed to be the villains of TNG, they’re so laughable on screen that they’re reduced to being nothing but comic relief.

Borg – Start off as an implacable foe. Completely relentless. But with the introduction of “Hugh” they’re suddenly not quite so implacable; get them away from the Collective and they become cute and cuddly. And by the time VOY is done with them, they’re no real threat at all.

Gorn, Tholians, etc – could have been villains, but fade into the background by the time of TNG. I can only assume that the Federation will eventually “assimilate” them.

In fact, it is almost hard to think of a Trek villain that hasn’t become “watered down” over time. They all seem to start out mean, but then the “they aren’t so bad after all” factor inevitably takes over…

[Brian K]

In my games we follow the mantra, maintaining the peace, is harder than war.

There is probably a more accurate quote out there, but this one works fine around my gaming table.

[Calcoran]

Trek Villains have always become watered down ...
Well, of course, that's how it goes. That's how it always went in human history. Back when we hardly knew what fire was for, the ugly enemy/treacherous villains/ was maybe the neighbour clan. Then it became the next village. The next town. The next country. Next time you know Earth has been unified. French people once thought of English people as their earnest enemies, now they only tell everyone that they can't cook and that they are buggers for not awaiting the EU eagerly enough . Maybe one day they'll all be considered Europeans, then Eartheans(?), Federation Citizens, Milkywayists, and so on .
That's just how it goes. No villain lasts forever. Hence, if you do not focus on a very specific time window, they'll always get watered down ... or destroyed, mind you .

[REG]

<font color="red">Romulans – Start off as villains, but become “watered down” over time. We’re told that the Romulan people aren’t villains, it’s just the government and the secret police that are mean. Riiiight.</font>

And you got a problem with that? That is so Cold War. Stop reading the outdated propaganda.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[Kronok]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cessna:
Face it, people, ALL of Trek has neutered villains. Always. That’s the whole point or Roddenberry’s ethos – “The bad guys weren’t so bad after all” is a central theme in Trek. In his idealistic vision, no enemy will be an enemy once they’re "understood…"
</font>

I totally agree with you Cessna… in fact, I will “One-up-ya!!!”

ALMOST ALL FICTION IS GOOD TRIUMPHING OVER EVIL!!!!

Except for “A Clockwork Orange” and a few other stories, Good will always triumph over Evil. It is what the public desires and makes for good drama.

Star Trek Examples (The term “Evil” can be substituted with various terms of conflict, in this case, Alien):

1. Evil shows up. Kirk/Picard/Sisko/Janeway neuter the Evil.

2. Evil shows up. Kirk/Picard/Sisko/Janeway do not understand the Evil, or cannot beat it, and we never see them again.

3. Evil shows up. Kirk/Picard/Sisko/Janeway have conflict with the Evil, we see them over and over again, and ultimately make it to #1 or #2 above.

That’s it! Unless of course you desire the alternative….

Borg show up, take over Federation, end of series.

More realistic? Probably, but not what Gene had in mind.

I guess I am kind of sick of all this “Voyager bashing.” Voyager did the same thing all the other series did.

Many are out there saying that they did the unthinkable- Beat the Borg.

I guess I have to say to all of you with this philosophy- Picard did it first, Bash TNG.

I would be curious to see what types of attitudes Voyager would have received if she had a male Captain?

Kronok

P.S. I did not intend to start a flame war with this post. I just liked Voyager. Not as much as I liked TNG, but I liked it. Quite a few of the episodes were pretty good, and TNG had some really sh@tty ones.

[Dan Gurden]

To be honest Kronok, I dont think that the fact it was a female captain bothered anyone.

My theory was that Voyager has hit the end of a 14 year run of Trek, and as such we, the fans, have been spoilt.

We have had show after show thrown at us, and as such have become complacant.

My belief is that had Voyager been shown after a few years absence from the screens then there would have been far fewer complaints.

Thats what I reckon. But then I also reckon that Enterprise will fail after 2 series, that the 5 captain should have been an Alien, and that the 5th series should have been delayed by more than a year, with perhaps some TV Movies in the meantime...

So what do I know?

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Dan.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Cessna]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kronok:
Except for “A Clockwork Orange” and a few other stories, Good will always triumph over Evil. It is what the public desires and makes for good drama</font>

Perhaps, but a determined, relentless enemy is also good drama.

That was why the Borg were so popular; strong, tough, unstoppable. An enemy like that makes a good foil, and spurs dramatic conflict.

But "Trek" has pulled the "they aren't so bad after all" story line so many time that it has become expected. "Here's the new bad-guy!" Response? "Okay, fine. How long until it is revealed that they're nice after all?"

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by REG:
And you got a problem with that? That is so Cold War. Stop reading the outdated propaganda. </font>

No, Reg, I don't have a problem with that; but who said that Trek has to reflect real life or politics every time? Is Trek allowed to deviate from being a metaphor for real-world situations?

[Michael Brinkhues]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by REG:
<font color="red">Romulans – Start off as villains, but become “watered down” over time. We’re told that the Romulan people aren’t villains, it’s just the government and the secret police that are mean. Riiiight.</font>

And you got a problem with that? That is so Cold War. Stop reading the outdated propaganda.

</font>

I loved the cold war. Honestly, from the standpoint of drama the cold war made for far better stories than todays rogue nations. And a good "enemy" on the other side makes for that too. Even better when among the bad masses there are the occassional lights of hope. Remember, for the UdSSR the enemy came from the West

I dislike the way ST handels a lot of villans. The Klingons where okay. 80 years of war, big crisis and some decades to get closer. There was a slow (and imperfect) development. But the Rommies - Puuuf instant allies. And the Borgs - Boing next to harmless. (Okay, 7of9 is a danger to most marriages)

The Borg are big guns. Use rarely if ever in an RPG setting. For me, Voyager never made it to the Delta Quadrant.

Rommies are (and will for me remain) the big schemers. With a bunch of crossbreeds and a good intelligence service, they are the UdSSR of the 1970s. You normally don't face of against them, they hide behind client states and smokescreens.

Breen make nice skirmishers and pirats / smugglers. After all no one knows, what the look like.

Michael

[Michael Brinkhues]

A female captain didn't bother me. After all Chakotay was landing the ship

No, biggest proplem with Voyager was the lost opportunities. It could have become a StarFleet Version of Battlestar Galactica or Space:1999. Finding your way home with all the internal and external problems that brings with you. If planned ahead, great character development would have been possible.

They didn't do anything like it.

Sending one ship and not a small group (DW as a nice explanation for a small squad out there) restricted character mobility

Not having a rough development draft lead to things like an Ensign remaining an Ensign while an ex-criminal observer gets promoted

Neutering villans killed possibilities. The Borg could have been by-passed. Kazon would make great "Cylons" (Not as good as feddies but more of them)

Some peaceful star empires out there would help to accept some real bay beeings as a contrast.

Some convincing instead of "oh, they changed by their own" would help. Not that Voy. managed that. The ship wasn't the best ambassador believable

Character interaction and long term NSC (like Datas girlfriend in TNG) that leave/die makes for good personal reasons to have enemies. Personal ones.


Michael

[REG]

<font color="orange">I dislike the way ST handels a lot of villans. The Klingons where okay. 80 years of war, big crisis and some decades to get closer. There was a slow (and imperfect) development. But the Rommies - Puuuf instant allies.</font>

*knocks on your forehead*

"Hello! Yo, McFly! Are you in there?" Sorry, just love to say that line. Hehehe.

Did you remember the Gulf War? Where we have the former Soviet Union allying with us (the US) against a common enemy? That's the Romulan's position with regards to the Dominion War. We are temporarily allied to a mutal cause: the common enemy which is the Dominion that poses a threat to both Federation, Romulan, and the entire Alpha Quadrant.

Personally, I believe that after the War, Romulan will go right back into the isolationist position as they have before. Now that the threat is over, there is no use in staying allied. We got to learn about them during the time, and they got to learn about us. By this interaction, would we be friends in the near future? I doubt it. After this, we've moved only inches closer to getting there, and about 10,000 light-years to go.

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 06-28-2001).]

[Diamond]

Especilly since the next Trek movie is rumored to have the Romulans as the bad guys.