Campaign help?

[AslanC]

And now it is time for Don Mappin's favorite game... Help AslanC with his campaign!

Okay here is a point form of what I have done and where I am going.

1] Captain Vellacora (right before he went mad and was dragged off to a mental colony) warned Lt. Cmdr. Lowell about people not being as they seemed.

2] The temporary Doctor, who seemingly pushed Vellcaora to madness (long story) turns out was listed as Missing/Presumed Dead 4 weeks before.

3] All the crew have been visited by loved ones passed on.

4] One of them, the brother of Captain Ramirez, has told his brother that they are like angels of a sort. He (or they) saved the Captain and the ship from a clash with the BORG.

5] If there be angels, there may be devils.

6] They are on their way to speak with Vellacora and learn more.

7] An Admiral in Starfleet, who authorized rather risky cloaking and interphase weapons testing in the past, has been exposed and was Court Martialed. He was accquited and reinstated at full rank and privelage. He has it out for Mr. Lowell.

8] The Hawks within the Federation Council and Starfleet have agreed to create a standing military force of either Starfleet Marines or MACOs to serve alongside Starfleet, thereby eliminating the Security Division (but not Tactical, which will be folded into Command Division).

9] This is a plot, being orcastrated by the Devils, who have been replacing key people within Starfleet and the UFP Council.

10] The players are to figure this stuff out, but slowly.

11] If this seems sort of like B5 it has levels of it's inspiration in it.

So here's where I am stuck... I am looking for ideas of how to evolve this plot further, steps I could take, what the devils and angels are fighting over, etc...

I figure it has to be something that was triggered by the massive amounts of death during the Dominion War.

These are not Qs or Trellane's or Cartaker/Susperia's or Bull Gills... these are for lack of a better term Angels and Devils.

Help? Ask questions? Offer ideas? Laugh openly at me?

[Tricky]

Hmmm very interesting.

Ok, so your're saying they ARE angels and devils? Not 'beings of superior science', but actual 'metaphysical, archetypical beings from high (and lower) planes of existance?

Ok, from what I've read about angels, in traditional Hebrew scripture, they are actually 'watchers'; it's their job to watch and chronicle man's deeds (and misdeeds) for Jehovha. That's why they do things like go incognito to Sodom and Gamorah and visit mangers in Bethlehelm.

Fallen angels, aka devils, tended to be those angels that either abandoned their charges or got to involved (mating with humans, for example). Oh, and siding with Lucipher against God.

So, perhaps all the death and dying of the Dominion war had drawn their attention. Perhaps the Devils see an opportunity to create death on such a grand scale as to punish 'the higher powers' for their dismissal.

Also, thinking of the interphase/cloaking experiment. Ever see Event Horizon? Where an experiment in space folding sends a ship 'someplace warmer'? Maybe the devils were freed from their eternal prison, and offered (or just forced) a deal upon the Hawks: We will make you the most powerful force in all creation. Simply serve us. (and, being rational Fed members, sure that these beings were something they COULD decieve (a Q, Trelene or Caretaker), took them up on the bargin.

In that eventuality, the angels are simply doing damage control; God loves free will, and if we silly humans throw in with the Damned, then we reap what we sow (or, is there a divine hand sweeping forth?).

The apocalypse, Star Trek style!

[Evan van Eyk]

Are they supposed to be real Angels and Devils or is that just the interpretation of them and they are in reality creatures, aliens, what do I know?

[Tobian]

I am not sure that the supernatural and Sci-Fi go together very well, except in gothic horror, like Event horizon; and especially in a Star-Trek context. Most 'gods' and 'angels' and 'devils' have always been debunked on the show as being false, be they Q, the Squire of trelane, Apolo, The Prophets, Ardra and even Khales the unforgetable.. It is a popular passtime of Trek writers to debunk the existence of an actual 'god' and any of his (her) messengers are shown to be shams. That is not to say that the supernatural does not exist in Trek, or that god does not exist, but they stay firmly in their own playing field, and do not come down and inhabit the world, as they did in the the old testament etc.

Trek also has generally had an anti-religious standpoint too, Gene certainly didn't like it, and almost all of th core characters seemed pretty much agnostic or atheist: Either not believing in a god or simply not believing in religion, and finding their own path. The largest exceptions being Chakotay and Kira, but then in the case of the entire bajoran Belief system, from a Trek and certainly from the point of view of Starfleet, they worshiped wierd aliens, not actual gods: beings who reside on a higher plane of existence, who had command of superscience, much as the Q does, but were finite and not the creators of the universe.

A problem with opening up the can of worms of actual religion in Trek is that it then proves or disproves one belief system. Yes many cultures might have some sort of 'god' but it is unlikelly they will have an Angel called Gabriel, or the metatron as the speaker of god etc, those are caveats of Christian religion. Actualy proving in game, of their existence upsets the whole apple cart.. How do Bajorans feel about Angels and Devils? How does a Klingon feel about them (since they killed their gods), it creates a divine mandate and disproves not just a disgruntled minor sect on earth but 99.9999999999 of all the aliens in Startek?!

In B5 they had ancients who insinuated themselves for centuries into sentient cultures manipulating them to their own ends and dragging them into holy wars, but they were still just that.. life forms, who had super science. The entire theme of the peice was 'get the hell out of our playground', allow us to grow on our own and find out own path and stop pushing us round. Very much, the implication in Trek is that people are mature enough to deal with their own problems without the need for the divine. You could call the end of the Dominion war a divine intervention.. or you could call it the will of the prophets or.... Hmm, it just doesn't sit well with me!

[Cut]

A similar idea was being tackled in 4 conected, series spanning Star Trek novels called INVASION!, something about a species called the furies, that look a lot like demons and beasts of ancient legends...

[AslanC]

Let's clear one thing.

These are not Christian/Judaic/Islamic creatures... they are beings... not magical, just really really really primal powerful and in touch with the universe.

Think of them as the Vorlons and the Shadows, etc... They are ancient kin to what would become the Q or Caretakers or even Trelenaes and Organians. They are not magical beings from heaven or hell.

Also, while I appreciate the insight, telling me why you think it won't work really isn't helpful

[Cut]

Also, while I appreciate the insight, telling me why you think it won't work really isn't helpful

Yes, you definately make a valid point here

[Cut]

How much to canon is your setting?

I'm quite interested in Romulan stuff, so my ideas go somewhat in that direction.

Probably these "beings" are drawn towards war fields, a little bit like those soulhunters in B5. Not just minor skirmishers but big, all-out wars, like the DW.
There hasn't been a conflict of the scale like the DW in Alpha and Beta quadrant with Federation involvement ever, has there?
Perhaps the "original" war that brought the Angels and Devils to this vincinity could have been that one that the Romulans waged with the Taurhai Unity (from the LUG boxed setting).
So perhaps that was what drew those beings to our galaxy and they lingered in the back waiting for something big to happen.

Now came the DW and they appear again. But it's possible that some Romulans have some kind of data and knowledge about them that could be discovered by your players and put to advantage for the Federation.

Don't know if that's any help, just some thoughts that came up in my head while reading the thread.

BTW I really think this setting of yours could work and sounds like a good roleplaying challange.

[Tricky]

Ok, so they AREN'T metaphisical beings.

Still, alot of the stuff I through out would still work. Perhaps they are entities from some Sub-Space domain; they have always watched us. Some of them broke this code and tried to interact or control us; they were condemed, removed from the group and confined in some other domain, meant to remain there forever.

That is, until the creatures of our reality disturbed the balance (either the wide scale confict or the interphase experiment), and now the condemed are free. Or maybe just a few. Maybe, the rest of the dissenters wait to be released, and now the 'devils' and their agents plot to release them; either through wide spread conflict (perhaps trying to start a war to cause more wide spread distruction) or to work toward creating a larger version of the experiment.

Or, taking a completely different path: perhaps the two sides are hyper evolved representatives of two races that at one time fought a terrible intersteller war. Some of them watch the 'excitement' of our Dominion War, and long for a time when they were able to follow such pursuits. So they begin to find ways to influence us and prod us toward war simply to recreate their former glory.

[Tobian]

Fair enough Aslan, but if you don't want opinions on an open Forum, then don't ask :P

I guess what you have to ask is "What do you want?" hehe ok bad B5 pun, I mean what do they want, what is their goal: is it our enlightenment / corruption, or is it to their own ends, as the Vorlons and Shadows were in B5. Explaining why they are here is easy, as it can be written is as a story hook, but I guess the big question is what is their ultimate agenda. In the end, since they aren't actually divine beings fighting over souls, they must therefore be in a battle for something which is relevant for them: The prohets and the pagh Wraiths were fighting over the Celestial Temple, in an essence they were kicked out of paridise and expelled to the fire caves, on Bajor.

So in this sense, is there a current winning side, and do the losing side want to win by using the PC's to get something they can't? It's the old 'what does god want with a Starship' Rif.. what is it that a pan dimensional being can want than a simple mortal posesses? It could simply be that like in B5, they wanted to simply prove themselves right, having reached a stalemate, they try and sway another party into being on their side, and tipping the ballance. While they might not collect 'souls' in the metaphysical sense, they may still have a wager on who is right, and use any means at their disposal (which can be considerable) to sway people one way or another.

The next important problem is whenever they have their mcguffin.. how does one get rid of them? Devils and angels are in a war of equilibrium, so if the ballance shifts one way the other side will push back... which could go on and on.. so how does one get them to go away Those are the questions you need to think of before you run such a game! In the case of Q it's by beating him at his own game, and sending him into a huff. In the case of the Vorlons and Shadows it was declaring peace i guess you have thinking to do

[The Tatterdemalion King]

What if the devils believe they are protecting the Federation by making them take a more militaristic stance? This could be part of a two-step plan, revolving around invasion from without (Borg, sphere builders, andromedans, pan-galactic psychic emanations, redjak-infestation, etc?) or some coming disturbance within the Federation (civil war? pandemic? rampant holodeck addiction?). The other angels may also be rebelling against a noninterference policy, but without wanting to foster this kind of societal change...

Of course, both groups could be being subverted by a third (fourth?) party, which is the real problem they need to deal with.

[First of Two]

I think the question that you'll have to answer for yourself first is:

Which side, if either, is "right?"

The answer will help tell you where you need to go with this.

If I were doing this (and I did something like it once, and will someday revisit it to the chagrin of my players who have no doubt forgotten it)...

I would have it turn out that the "Devils" are right, that there IS some great coming Darkness that the Feds need to be prepared to meet head-on and with full force*, and that the "Angels" are agents of that Darkness, trying to lull the Feds into a state in which they'll be more easily subdued.

This would feed into several of my favorite themes, including:
"What is beautiful is not always what is good,"
"When someone tells you 'I'm doing this for your own good,' he's usually lying,"
"To secure peace one must be prepared for war"
and "Pacifists are crunchy and good with ketchup."

OTOH, the other side, or neither side, or possibly even BOTH sides, could be "right." That would lead you in other directions.

*This doesn't necessarily mean that the "Devils" are going about it in the 'right' and 'moral' way.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I would have it turn out that the "Devils" are right, that there IS some great coming Darkness that the Feds need to be prepared to meet head-on and with full force*, and that the "Angels" are agents of that Darkness, trying to lull the Feds into a state in which they'll be more easily subdued.

I'd probably take a completely different tack–that the good vs. evil conflict is actually the 'enemy.' the Devils believe the darkness to be something that needs to be stopped, the angels think it is inevitable and necessary–but the Federation, the PCs, need to recognize both of them are stupid/lying and deal with the 'darkness' constructively, whatever that darkness may be.

[C5]

Very interesting setting. Here are a few twists from my demented brain :

- It's all a game after all :
The angels and demons could simply be playing some game of chess of which humanoids are the pawns. There would really be no good or evil at work here, only a sort of game with complex rules (maybe the angels and demons are a very advanced version of the Wadi )

- The rat's maze :
These beings could also be scientists, trying to understand how mythology works for lower lifeform. Hence, the posing as various mythological figures and the meddling in the affairs of humanoids. Of course, they would have few concerns as to the consequences of their experiments.

- Lost :
The angels and demons could also be lost in this dimension or something, and manipulating humanoids to help them go back where they're from. Going back could mean much more than opening a big gate and stepping through, and could even be extremely dangerous to our reality (like opening a black hole in the solar system), hence the manipulations. In this case, both angels and demons would belong to the same species and share the same goal, but with different abilities.

- Terminator meets Marvel Comics :
The angels come from a disastrous future and are trying to prevent it from happening. They could even be older versions of the PCs or their descendants. The demons are in this case the bad guys from the future, making sure it will happen, or just modern enemies to whom the future was benefic. As for their powers, either they were a side-effect of what happened, or they are inherent to the demons (and then stolen by the angels).

Ok, this is going a bit far-fetched. I'd better get back to work

[AslanC]

Great ideas gang.

I like the idea of the "Angels" being actually not the best choice and the "Devils" seeing themselves as protectors after a fashion. Thought it does smack of the Vorlons vs Shadows in B5 (one side for order the other for chaos or free will).

I think the basic concept I had that was first inspired as well by 5th Element works. The massive amounts of death, tens of billions in total, from the Dominion war released a lot of energy (souls, spirits, pagh... etc) and that is what has set "something" in motion.

An ancient evil has awakened perhaps? The "Angels" are the servents of order and life. They want to maintain the status-qou. The "Devils" are the misguided (or perhaps not misguided) servents of this ancient evil. If it can reach full power, the universe will be destroyed and reborn, progress/change if you will.

I LOVE the idea that these forces are simply using the mortals/normals as pawns or tools in their "War in Heaven" as it were.

Anyone remember Count Iblis and the Ship of Lights from the old BSG? There are elements of that I would grab as well.

For the ancient "evil" to get more power, there must be more death and to have more death easily there must be war, the Alpha Quadrant is certainly ripe in a post-DW environment for hair-trigger reactions that could lead to more war.

While the BORG would not be on either side, the "Devils" would be opposed to them as they don't kill and destroy the soul/lifeforce, but simply mute it through assimilation. The "Angels" would probably see the BORG as a necessary part of the evolution of the Galaxy, like locusts.

Essentialy in this conflict neither side is "right". One seeks the continuation without change of things and the other sees absolute destruction of everything as the only means of change. Both sides are too locked into their extremes.

As to how to get rid of either side... hmm... that is a hell of a question... I don't know to answer that. There is the B5 out; achieve lasting alliance and peace. Or the 5th Element out; Subvert the weapon of choice to being one of free will. I just don't know.

I am fond of the idea that Q, Trellane and others are simply one step below these forces and sort of (like the old ones in B5) should have moved on by now.

I think the suggestion that they live in an Interphase dimension is good and that their agents have been pushing the developemtn of interphase cloaks and weapons to tear open the fabric enough to let their forces through. Sort of like the Red Lectroids trapped in the 8th Dimension. Good suggestion that one.

The Romulans are going to be the only race (other than the BORG) who are not comprismised by either side. Since the Romulans are so paranoid and watch each other so effectively, they catch on early to infiltration techniques and then begin shoring up for defense against these beings. This will lead them to being a powerful ally of the PCs in the latter stages of the story.

Well that's all I have so far... does it focus the lens a bit more?

Oh and one more thing for Tobian

Fair enough Aslan, but if you don't want opinions on an open Forum, then don't ask :P

right back at you... I didn't ask for your opions, I asked for help so there