Warp Speeds - Yet Again!

[Captain Blake]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SIR SIG:
This one will scare you

http://www-personal.usyd.edu.au/~mshields/TV/warp.html


</font>

Nah, not really, I like Arctan's in my equations.

A quick question before I spend any time trying to think of anything.

What exactly do you need for your formula? Are you going to use the "Book Values" with a multiplier (either constant or function)? Or do you want a whole new function based on increasing the value of the exponent (wf)^(10/3)?

Alex

[Phoenix]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Blake:
v/c = [(3.8333)*(wf) - 2.8333]*(wf)^(10/3)
</font>

Has (or is) anyone tried to do a chart on this yet, if so any plans to post it, and yes the BIG MATH is starting scaring me.

SirSig, after re-reading my earlier response to the quick chart above, I realized that my answer could have been better phrased, so I edited the chart...but with the new formula now posted my chart doesn't really make much difference.

WF—xC(TNG)-Chi---new WF
1-Cx1-----(x1)---Cx1
2-Cx10----(x1.5)-Cx15
3-Cx39----(x2)---Cx78
4-Cx102---(x3)---Cx306
5-Cx214---(x6)---Cx1284
6-Cx392---(x12)--Cx4704
7-Cx656---(x24)--Cx15744
8-Cx1024--(x48)--Cx49152
9-Cx1516--(x96)--Cx145536
(I'm guessing here)

That was kinda' what I was originally thinking when I recommended a non-linear scale...any hoo

Phoenix...

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"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
-Napoleon

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Captain Blake]

Using v/c = [3.8333(wf)-2.8333]*(wf)^10/3

I get

wf	old	new	    multiplier
1	1	1	    1
2	10	48.71	    4.87
3	39	337.48	    8.65
4	102	1269.92	    12.45
5	214	3491.20	    16.31
6	392	7915.37	    20.19
7	656	15747.24      24.00
8	1024	28501.33      27.83
9	1516	48018.73      31.67

Alex


[This message has been edited by Captain Blake (edited 06-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Captain Blake (edited 06-27-2001).]

[Captain Blake]

Sorry for the double post

As a secondary note, since I don't have a lot of mathematical tools here at work, I can only approximate Phoenix's values.

f(wf) = (wf)^-2*exp(wf).

Unfortunately, using an exponential in this manner gets funky at low values of wf (between 1 and 2).

WF	MULT	F1
1	1	2.718
2	1.5	1.847
3	2	2.232
4	3	3.412
5	6	5.937
6	12	11.21
7	24	22.38
8	48	46.58
9	96	100.04

As one can see, the value for wf 1 doesn't come out right. Sigh. Apparently I need to do something to remove the factor of e. Back to the old fit tables.

Alex

[SIR SIG]

Impressive, very impressive.

Okay, well say Warp 1 = 1*C since Speed of Light is our lowest and 'arcane' value. And build from there.

Some more canon info; just watched the latest Voyager video 7.3 (latest for Australia).

Critical Care, had Voyager going upto 3 ly in 2 hours. So saying 3 ly's that 1.5 ly / hr. (doesn't have to max warp)

Inside Man, had the USS Carolina doing 0.7 ly in 2 hours. Now since this was a top priority mission I'd say that was maximum warp for this ship.

Now at 0.35 ly / hr thats about warp 9.? I think 9.6 but don't have the math here. So at the canon warp chart that works or it could be a really old ship that's max warp with a Chi factor works out to be 0.35 ly /hr

Hmmm, I still think a multiplier around 24 as a constant would be about right but...

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[SIR SIG]

Another point from Voyager in Unimatrix 0. They go 2 ly in 2hrs under a distress signal, so you would assume that they would be going fast.

Some calcs at the time put them at warp 9.99.. something. 9.992?

Can look up, the DITL chap agreed with me though using his formula.

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[SIR SIG]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phoenix:
Unless we use warp one as just a benchmark to determine who is protected by the Prime Directive, and only as the point as to where the chart begins...just a thought.

Call me old-faction, but I like the idea of warp one representing the speed of light...

</font>

Yeah. I'm thinking that since warp 1 is meant to be the speed of light. Then it is the 'bottom rung' benchmark to which all other speeds are measured by.

While a Chi/multiplier of 24 works out just dandy. SHould we have a range for federation space or a finite answer.

eg. the odd episode actually quotes the 'accepted' warp chart to very close values. Like doing 1 ly a day at warp 6.

So a lower end of 0 for 'warp shallows', 1 for 'baseline average' and 24 for a maximum?

This will work if we disregard STV

All we could say there are the odd exceptional areas of space that dramatically increase your muliplier over a considerable distance.

Or am I just babbling again about Maps & Warp Speeds again


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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[Captain Blake]

If you want a constant 24 (and not a function of some sort), I'd say it was a Federation Average Value.

We'd have the "Standard Value" of 1 for normal, unexplored space.

We could have 283 (for random example) for the warp superhighways.

As a note, something I just thought of, this could help explain the difference between "Quantum Slipstream" and "Transwarp Drive". Forgive me if anyone else has already said this.

Transwarp Drive is pushing the ship into the next subspace boundary domain, where a new series of warp/energy curves hold true. This is tough because there is an energy threshold that is needed to cross to put the ship across Eugene's Barrier. If you have chemistry/thermodynamic knowledge this barrier is like Activation Energy. Going Warp 10 is the equivalent of a Transition state, half way between the domains, which has the "mutating" effect as sort of shown in the Threshold episode.

A Transwarp Corridor Lowers this "Activation Energy." allowing ships to go Transwarp without as much energy expenditure. In this way a Transwarp Corridor functions as a catalyst.

The net effect of these is to allow (wf) above 10.

A Quantum Slipstream drive increases the Chi factor, or the Subspace Permissivity if you prefer, and leaves the (wf) alone. It increases the net speed of the ship, but leaves it in the original subspace domain.

What d'ya think!

Alex

[SIR SIG]

So I'm not alone in wierd ideas eh?

After seeing some of Endgame, I'd be inclined to explain Transwarp(Borg) below:

Akin to the Underspace corridors in 'Dragon's Teeth', the Transwarp Hub is but a nexus to these predefined and existing conduits.

The Transwarp Hub is but 1 of 6 naturally occuring access points to the conduits.

Now by this theory then there are conduits everywhere, you just need to know where to look.

So continuing this, any ship with a transwarp coil can detect nearbye conduits and 'rip a hole in one' to access it. Where as by going through a hub you have the starting spot of millions? of conduits and don't need to expend the energy to force your way into a conduit.

So by this then there is a conduit that runs very close to Earth. Now since the Borg access Hub was on only a small portion of the Hub itself. They must still be mapping out where all the conduits go.

A similiar example would be Sigil in the DnD Planescape setting. Everywhere there could be a portal to another location in the planes.

Does that work?

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[SIR SIG]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Blake:
If you want a constant 24 (and not a function of some sort), I'd say it was a Federation Average Value.

We'd have the "Standard Value" of 1 for normal, unexplored space.

We could have 283 (for random example) for the warp superhighways.
Alex</font>

Yep I like this.

Chi=1 is space in which the subspace hasn't been mapped out properly. And thus a high chi has not been located.

Chi=24 is Fed space that has been fully explored and mapped for functions of Chi; your average if you will.

Aywhere else could be in arange of 0.1-1000's?.

It works in my book, but will other accept it?

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[Captain Blake]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SIR SIG:
So I'm not alone in wierd ideas eh? </font>

Nope. I'm sort of the king of wierd ideas.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">snip
A similiar example would be Sigil in the DnD Planescape setting. Everywhere there could be a portal to another location in the planes.

Does that work?
</font>

Hmmm, so, transwarp is a naturally occuring subspace phenomenon, which can be accessed by the correct technology. I like it.

The most advanced form of technology along this path would be creating artificial transwarp corridors. The most advanced form of that would be the creation of transwarp corridors that anyone could use, which could be thought of as "Stable Wormholes" or "Iconian Gateways".

Coaxial warp drive (which I couldn't figure out a different mechanism for) could be the one that moves the ship into a different subspace region, where it can move faster.

I still like the localized manipulation of the Chi factor for quantum slipstream. It explains why it's so darn fast, but also so very dangerous.

What'd ya think? Do we have semi-rational explanations for the three Supra-Warp drives from Voyager?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Yep I like this.

Chi=1 is space in which the subspace hasn't been mapped out properly. And thus a high chi has not been located.

Chi=24 is Fed space that has been fully explored and mapped for functions of Chi; your average if you will.

Aywhere else could be in a range of 0.1-1000's?.

It works in my book, but will others accept it? </font>

It fits the available data you've provided. Most people probably aren't as ... um ... oh heck, Anal about the math/realism factor involved as we are, so I doubt it'll catch on.

But hey, I like it. And my old FASA Trek group which consisted of Chemistry, Math, Physics and Computer Science Majors would have loved it.

Alex

[This message has been edited by Captain Blake (edited 07-06-2001).]

[SIR SIG]

ROTFLMAO

Yep some of us really do want to know how it works eh

Yep thats the feel I get from Voyager and transwarp.

So Quantum Slipstream artificially manipulates the chi factor in local space then?

Oh and another point, this from the new series.

They'll supposedly be doing TOS warp 4.5 and get to Qo'nos in 4 days.

By the numbers they'd be doing 0.25 of a ly/day. So the CHI does exist

Unless Qo'nos is a new rogue planet just 1 ly from Earth lol

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[Captain Blake]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SIR SIG:
Yep some of us really do want to know how it works eh </font>

yep. We may not be able to do it, or even explain the physics involved, but at least we can make the Technobabble feel right.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So Quantum Slipstream artificially manipulates the chi factor in local space then?</font>

It could. While my namesake has skills in Subspace theory, in reality my training is as a Physical Chemist.

It would explain why there has to be a lot of calculations, and a preset cource, which if deviated from could cause damage. In the local area around the ship, the Chi factor is say 500. If you push part of the ship back to normal chi space of 1, then part of the ship is moving at 500 times faster than the rest. The pre-set cource is required to directionally project the altered Chi region of space.

And by leaving the Coaxial Warp Drive as the transition to a different subspace realm where faster travel is available, we allow for all the fan fic and DITL versions of Transwarp drive. My take would be that there is a warp bubble coaxial (inside) another warp bubble. This gives us the Warp 11 thru 19 speeds. A third bubble inside the other two gives us the 21 thru 29 speeds, etc.

Coaxial drive would be faster than regular drive, but still be limited to the same Chi factor as regular drive. If you can sustain the Coaxial bubbles, you should be able to turn around at full speed, maneuver, and all the things that regular warp drive can do.

And this explains why the Fed has never created Supra-Warp (tm, pending) drives. They never understood why they couldn't just move Transwarp. They were trying to combine the Coaxial Warp theory with transwarp corridors. No wonder things kept blowing up.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Oh and another point, this from the new series.

They'll supposedly be doing TOS warp 4.5 and get to Qo'nos in 4 days.

By the numbers they'd be doing 0.25 of a ly/day. So the CHI does exist

Unless Qo'nos is a new rogue planet just 1 ly from Earth lol

</font>

It's so nice of the Klingon ship to have already mapped the Chi factor between here and there, and in such an easily understandable fashion, for the Enterprise to use to go to Qo'nos.

Too bad Kirk didn't have it.

As a further aside, I'm beginning to believe that all Trek Shows are Their Own Universe, which resembles the others, but are not the same. That way, nobody has to pay attention to Canon. Sigh.

Alex