Player's and Narrator's Guides Core Rules: What's broken?

[Tobian]

If I am honest then yes I am essentially afraid of players over using Psi in the game, if they could gain it so easilly. Yes they are not going to become mental ninja's but telepathy and empath abilities can be very annoying in game. A slow building of such things prevents them from being too overused and overpowered IMHO. Powerful sensor technology and transporters are already problematic without a *clever bypass of the week techbobabble field, which blocks it*, without Telepathy too

Ballance in Trek is essential to make it work. The existience of the Federation makes PC's bellong to rational right thinking pacifists.. however in reality players do not come from a utopianist society, and are used to playing things like D&D, so they can become statto's and minmaxers.. This is not the place to discuss those issues, but what I am trying to say is basically it is exactly the way in which it is designed which makes me like the system.. it seems ballanced, and that's a complement to the designers!

If I understandy your house rules on telepathy, what you are saying is essentially everyone rolls on a 7th statistic, and if you don't chose to be a telepath, then you distribute those points to your other stats?! This would mean a higher base character stats than the present spread. Or am I misunderstanding you? If you're suggesting only telepaths get this seventh roll, then I find that unfair and I would have 'fixed' it had it been part of the official rules. it is one of the bad parts about ICON which I feel Coda fixed.

I also happen to like the wide zero base spread of the stat modifier as well, as I find it incredibly disapointing and annoying to get a negative stat, and given the actual Startrek setting, innapropriate; given that most Starfleet officers are in their worlds 98th percentile, and ergo their counterparts are equally as good (non Starfleet characters etc) because they register as more than blips on the radar of teeming billions! They are hero's so it's insulting to have negative attributes.. they have flaws however, as almost all hero's have quirks which prevent them from being perfect Those Flaws ae also chosen for roleplaying reasons, not because they rolled badly! I happen to like Flaws allot, as they open up roleplaying opportunities and help make characters not so unfeasably perfect

I am not sure if I am missing the point of the question here but surelly the character creation process creates characters at the beginning of their career, they do not create Worf 's ninja uber fighting abilities, Loixanna Troi's amazing telepathy, Jean Luc Picards' Phenomenal diplomacy or McCoy's ability to 'cure a rainy day'. If you want to create mid-career, highly experienced characters, because that suits your style of troupe play, then you are looking in the wrong place! If you're handing out freebie points to make such characters, then that is what you do, not retrospectivelly 'fix' the caracter creation process to make someone with a skill basis going from Harry kim to Admiral Kirk!

However that said something which probably should have been included within the players guide / narrators guide was exactly that: A guide to creating your own set of 'Enterprise officers at the height of their careers', yes it does provide some examples in the NG, but it does not explain how and why the points were spent, so you could replicate it for your own crews. Of course that may have been included in a never released suplement in the future

[Pantoufle]

Amen to Tobian's post

[RayJ]

Having brought up telepathy and the Psi skill, I have more information for you (in addition to my suggestions at Decipher's forum) In my current campaign, one of the characters created a psionic character that works for Section 31.

In the beginning of the character's career, he was fairly mild, usually relying on his excellent hacking skills alone to get things done behind the scenes. After a couple months of play, however, with the maxing of his mind control skill and the maxing of his Psi attribute through advancement (as is possible by the special text on the edge) he has tried to completely control every situation with this ability. Normal characters (PC and NPC alike) aren't built to have Willpower Reaction modifiers to compete with the numbers he's churning out. The only way to balance the character is to introduce more psionic NPCs and to use drugs or other methods of control to limit the player's psionic abilities.

I've managed to find a good balance with the player and his use of the psionic skills (and he's received some special bonuses not granted in the books for some pretty amazing things that have helped the party) but for an unexperienced GM, a player with a highly specialized psionic character could destroy the game.


On a side note, what is the expected timeline for seeing these changes to the PG and NG? My 3-year campaign is coming to an end in just under 2 weeks, and after the holiday season my group will be starting anew. It would be great to have the updated material by then. I'd also much rather wait for the material and have all the kinks worked out than to have the product rushed out for profit's sake.

[Ineti]

On a side note, what is the expected timeline for seeing these changes to the PG and NG?

No release dates have been set yet; early to mid-2006 would be my guess.

[Ergi]

Regarding possible bonuses from high Psi:

Even if a player decided to max out his Psi attribute, he would only get a +3 to his Psi skill rolls. I really don't think this would hurt the game in a noticeable way. If you are really worried about min-maxing and unbalanced mechanics, there are other areas you should look at.

If I understandy your house rules on telepathy, what you are saying is essentially everyone rolls on a 7th statistic, and if you don't chose to be a telepath, then you distribute those points to your other stats?! This would mean a higher base character stats than the present spread. Or am I misunderstanding you? If you're suggesting only telepaths get this seventh roll, then I find that unfair and I would have 'fixed' it had it been part of the official rules. it is one of the bad parts about ICON which I feel Coda fixed.

No, you're wrong. Right now, everybody rolls I think 9 times, discards the three lowest results, and distributes the remaining values as he likes. Telepaths would discard only the lowest 2 rolls. This way their attribute average should actually be lower than that of other characters without psychic powers.

They wouldn't be better off with the pick method either, unless you increase the number of points available for free distribution, but that would unbalance the game.

I also happen to like the wide zero base spread of the stat modifier as well, as I find it incredibly disapointing and annoying to get a negative stat, and given the actual Startrek setting, innapropriate; given that most Starfleet officers are in their worlds 98th percentile, and ergo their counterparts are equally as good (non Starfleet characters etc) because they register as more than blips on the radar of teeming billions! They are hero's so it's insulting to have negative attributes..

I feel the same way. I usually spend a lot of creation points on attributes, just to prevent negative modifiers, and I perfectly understand why the attribute modifier table looks the way it does. But let's face it. If you have an attribute score of 4 you are pretty bad, and you should get a negative modifier to reflect that.
Besides, it wouldn't be fair for those players who pay for their average character's average attributes to be as good as those characters who clearly fall into the "below average" category.
In my opinion most humans in Starfleet have minimum attributes of 6, some attributes may be as low as 5, but only if they can compensate with other attributes. Of course, other limits apply to members of different species.

[Tobian]

If you're only going to get a +3 maximum, then why not just give that player +3 to the telepathy skill? As the reverse of your argument, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue for?! If you want a character to have a high telepathy, then, as a GM, just engineer a Skill Focus which gives a +2 to telepathy, which is paid for with a Flaw, combined with the Psionic potential background and the improved telepathy edge in the Batazoid description in Aliens would give you a +8 to that skill without breaking the rules as they stand (notwitstanding points spent during character creation on the skill): If you really HAD to have a very powerful telepath from the very beginning! Why does the Psi stat need to be higher?

Ok and now I understand your Psi attribute system Ergi: I just don't like it

As for your idea for modifying the stats modifiers: again, I just don't like it and prefer the old system

[Ergi]

I just want Psi, for characters who are psionic, to function as a normal attribute. I really don't see what's the problem with that. The basic idea, as far as I understand it, is that attributes, unlike skills, have a hereditary component. This means genetic variance, and this means that there should be different degrees of psionic potential, i.e. Psi scores. Traits are just an imperfect all or nothing solution, that, as you said, might require the players to select flaws. What do high attribute scores have to do with flaws?

Of course, if it was only about having a high total modifier (including attribute bonus, skill level, advantages) in a particular psionic skill, simply increasing the skill would be sufficient, but I would like there to be a difference between a gifted and a skilled "telepath". I say "telepath" because I don't really like the way you use the term. You seem to apply it to everybody with a Psi above 0, although, in the game, it should only apply to those with the telepathy skill. Let's say psionic instead.

I hope I've made myself clear, this time. And you are free to like or dislike whatever you want.

[RayJ]

Regarding possible bonuses from high Psi:

Even if a player decided to max out his Psi attribute, he would only get a +3 to his Psi skill rolls. I really don't think this would hurt the game in a noticeable way.

I completely understand your position, but let's put it to a test:

Say said character has a PSI attribute of 12 after advancement for the +3 modifer.
Now say said character has 12 levels in the skill he wants to use (say Mind Control)
Now add on the trait Psionic Coverage for a +5 bonus when targeting multiple individuals and Psionic Focus to ignore the first 5 points of environmental penalties.

Have said Psion initiate a mind-control of two people (-1 to his test) in close proximity (short range = 0 modifier) and have him give an order they absolutely would not perform without the mind control (say shooting a loved one with a disruptor set to vaporize a humanoid)

Let's have the subjects be of similar species to the Psion on a city street without a ton of loud noise (-3-6 to his test depending on how different the species is) These two subjects are Jean-Luc Picard and Geordi La-Forge (stats taken from the narrator's guide)

The benefit of Psionic Coverage almost completely compensates for the species/# of targets modifers depending on how close his species is to Humans mentally. Using the willpower reactions given, Jean-Luc has a +4 will power modifer and Geordi a +2. The modifer for our Psion is currently a +15. If Jean-Luc and the Psion roll the same number on 2d6 (a decent possibility) the Psion already meets the condition for an extraordinary success, and now Geordi and Picard are both willing to go vaporize a loved one.

That seems to be balanced enough for you? Yes, the Psion has trained his skills to their maximum potential, but should all PCs and NPCs in the campaign now ahve to be made with much higher-than-average Willpower reactions to even survive this menace?

The system needs a complete revisioin, not just a boost to numbers here and there.

[Ergi]

So you are saying that somebody with the highest possible scores in Psi and mind control shouldn't be able to control other peoples' minds in an extraordinary fashion? That's what mind control is for!

The problem is not with the game, it's with people (apart from the things we want to fix here ). If your players want to buy and use NoNo skills, you might want to talk about them what kind of game they want to play, bcause it is certainly not Starfleet Trek.

I think the system works, on the low to medium level. Unfortunately, it is relatively easy to become too good.

[Tobian]

I just want Psi, for characters who are psionic, to function as a normal attribute. I really don't see what's the problem with that. The basic idea, as far as I understand it, is that attributes, unlike skills, have a hereditary component. This means genetic variance, and this means that there should be different degrees of psionic potential, i.e. Psi scores. Traits are just an imperfect all or nothing solution, that, as you said, might require the players to select flaws. What do high attribute scores have to do with flaws?

Of course, if it was only about having a high total modifier (including attribute bonus, skill level, advantages) in a particular psionic skill, simply increasing the skill would be sufficient, but I would like there to be a difference between a gifted and a skilled "telepath". I say "telepath" because I don't really like the way you use the term. You seem to apply it to everybody with a Psi above 0, although, in the game, it should only apply to those with the telepathy skill. Let's say psionic instead.

Ok I hear what you are saying here, but lets look at it from this way.. A batazoid, by default gains a Psi Stat of 4, and gains the telepathy +2 ability, giving them, effectivelly, a +2 on telepathy. An andorian, will on average have a higher than average Perception, but gains a +2 on hearing related tests, due to his antennae, so on average he will recieve a +3 on skill tests based on hearing.. These are unmodified skill stats, before the character buys any background and professional packages. Now here the Andorian has a better than average perception, and certainly better hearing than a default Human, but most of that bonus is reflected from the skill modifier NOT the attribute it's self.

So on the one hand yes, the game is saying that there are genetic ability differences between species BUT most of that difference comes Skills, because the game is largelly built on Skills. Yes I can see your argument about a 'gifted' person, as well, but then this can adequatelly simulated, if not moreso, with skills, as actual Stats make relative little difference. but skills make a huge difference. Hence in the Batazoid example, he is given a +4 to the skill, rather than a +8 to the stat, because in terms of a point cost at character creation, it's cheaper to buy skills, and a +8 stat modifier would be ludicrous! There is a reason Species 8472 is not a player-available race!!!

As a storyteller, I might, however, allow players to swap some points out of their 6 rolled stats and place some points in their Psionic stat, but this could rapidly become min-maxing! If you think of respective examples in the show, such as Tam Elbrum, if you were to stat him you would say he had a really high telepathy skill, essentially a genius, a freak, and way above most Betazoids.. but he had no especial ability to block out all of the influx of mental data of all of the crew.. in essence, he did not have a corresponding 'mind shield' or indeed general psi stat, to correspond to his telepathy bonus. Essentially you could say that he was 'gifted', and have a mechanical skill bonus and this, mechanically is no different to having a higher stat, because 'skills' can be just as relevant to genetics, within this system, as Stats: Hence I can see why the designers did it this way. The Andorian with 'genetically gifted' hearing comes from the skill, as does a Vulcan's.

[Tobian]

So you are saying that somebody with the highest possible scores in Psi and mind control shouldn't be able to control other peoples' minds in an extraordinary fashion? That's what mind control is for!

The problem is not with the game, it's with people (apart from the things we want to fix here ). If your players want to buy and use NoNo skills, you might want to talk about them what kind of game they want to play, bcause it is certainly not Starfleet Trek.

Yes, but we have the safety net of 'The rules' to prevent this from happening. I have every confidence that in the present rules such characters couldn't be made without many many sessions of dedicated minmaxing Why tinker with the rules, to allow such monstrosities, since as you say they have no place in a Starfleet Startrek game? Why argue that you wish to allow it but then not allow it?

"Ok guys, I'm creating my own houserules which allows you to become really overly minmaxed psychic freaks, who can bend people's fragile minds like they are matchsticks.. but I trust you to never use them, because you are the good guys"

My arse would I allow that, my players are NOT some kind of roleplaying saints, they are regular people! They are not from the 24th century and they will do anything and everything to win Players are not their characters!

[Ergi]

+3, dammit! That's all I want.

Okay, let's turn this around. One of my players has Strength 12 and the strength-based "vaporize enemy with touch" skill. Now what's the problem, the bonus he gets from his Strength, or the skill, which I therefore wouldn't allow in the first place.

Telepaths are a problem in general, (now I sound like I'm switching sides) but I really don't believe that this change will make such a big difference. If you don't like telepathy you will probably prohibit players from playing Betazoids, anyway.

I really think we should stop boring everybody else here.

[RayJ]

I think the system works, on the low to medium level. Unfortunately, it is relatively easy to become too good.

I think you summed this up rather nicely. low to mid level the mechanics of Coda really are quite balanced (Psionics included). However, sometime shortly after the 15th advancement or so truly specialized skills result in having extraordinary successes nearly every roll. To limit these situations the GM gets tools (situational modifers from environment/destraction/etc..) to bring the numbers back down.

Also, you should never assume that every game is starfleet based, as not everyone likes being confined in their roles. My current campaign started with the crew as bridge offers on the perimeter defense flagship (an akira class vessel) but constant interference by the Romulans has led them into a mercenary life on the run from Starfleet and the Romulan Empire at the same time. Such dubious acts as unsolicited mind control are important tools in this situation when the players have less than their standard equipment and resources available to them before they escaped their imprisonment during courtmarshal.

I'm not having a hard time dealing with the situational misuses of certain skills as much as dealing with inflated modifers from characters that have been played for 3 years. Our house rule of double-ones being an automatic failure this year has made some interesting circumstances, but the system doesn't seem particularly well suited for highly specialized characters above 15 advancements.

If Kieran, Jim and Patrick are working to keep this game alive and (hopefully) update it with completely new material in the future, they could use the experience that comes from a 3-year campaign.

[PGoodman13]

Geez! You go back to work after lunch and you come back and find this long, drawn out debate!!

Ray, no game system survives long-term, highly-specialized characters like your psion in question, at least not in the last 25 years of experience I've had watching a lot of long-term campaigns outgrow their rules. This isn't said to belittle your problems, since I can understand some of them, but not all of the problems are the game's fault, from what I can see.

That said, yes, I welcome your extensive experience with the game and the system, and I thank you from the stony, craggy bottom of that icy thing I call my heart.

Bottom line: I don't think we're going to completely rewrite the psionics rules, but I think I'm going to try to make the Psi attribute a little more like any of the other attributes, which I think can be done pretty simply without breaking what's there any further.

[RayJ]

I was rereading through the character creation rules and found some things that might also need some addressing.

The first of these is mixed species. Decipher's team did an excellent job of fitting a lot of information into such a small space, but maybe a full-page explanation could help to broaden the topic. The only problem with these rules is the fact that the player gets to roll two sets of attributes and apply the highest rolls to the attributes he will choose from that race, resulting in higher overall attributes for a mixed-species character. Under these rules, it is almost best to have every character be mixed species of some sort.

To correct this, have the palyer roll a single set of stats and choose the 6 he would like to use. Apply the numbers identically to both species and then take the picks from each. This will create a more balanced hybrid of the two species.

The second thing of note is the favored profession given for each species. As it currently stands, this is just flavor text and doesn't contribute anything rules-wise unless I havecompletely missed something in my many readings of the PLayer's Guide (not impossible). I would like to see some sort of bonus for a species entering its favored profession rules-wise so that it is more than just a guideline.

I'll keep you updated on other things that I find. I understand a lot of these issues will be very hard to get changes on, but it's always better to have more information than less in these situations.