Am I dumb or is there something strange with the starship combat rules?

[Silverstreak]

We don't see actual physical damage to the hulls of the ships, because of cost reasons, but most time when a shot does 'damage' not only do we get a readout to the effect of 'sheilds down to 50% sir" but the set wobbles, shakes, panels short and explode.. We hear about casualties, sections of the ship vented to space and sometimes see fires and sections of the ship cut off, random girders all over the place, and sometimes, just sometimes, a few strands of Janeways hair fall out of place!

That only applies to Voyager, they sort of ignored the way shields worked for that show altogether. Consoles and stuff exploding never even happened on TNG until the shields went down completely and even then rarely.

[Gaunt_Man]

OK, this will probably be my last reply until my group have tested the rules.

Part of me gets what you mean, but part of me doesn't... if you take a 40 LB gun and an 80Lb gun.. if both are set to the same alignment and miss.. does it make a difference how powerful they were?

I'm uncertain what you mean about 40lb. vs. 80lb. guns. Do you mean the weight of the guns? Then of course it doesn't matter! It would more akin to caliber and muzzle velocity: a 5.56mm N round from fired from an M16 assault rifle WILL penetrate a kevlar vest, whereas a 9mm P from a Beretta 92 isn't quite as certain in getting through. So, surely, the weapon used does matter! (and I'll once again point out that Protection also regulates how shield strength is affected, as per p. 114 of NG) .

Anyway, it's been kind of interesting how we seem to agree on most things except my original point!

BTW, thank you for helping me out with these rules, this discussion actually HAS been of great help to me!

So long!

/The Gaunt Man

[Tobian]

I don't agree really, it happened in the movies, DS9 and TOS, and I'm fairly sure it happened on TNG. Perhaps the filter of my mind is saying to me it did, I can't say definitivelly either way, without re-watching all of TNG, but I'm fairly sure it did!

Besides which, Voyager *IS* Startrek and the rules have to cover it, wether you like it or not!

[UFC465537]

Why not simply look at it the way they do on the TV show.

A ship's shields cannot be penetrated unless you know their shield modulation or you are using a weapon like the Dominion did when first encountering Starfleet?

Just chiming in- I agree with Tobian's comments about the shaking sets on TOS, etc, but I believe the battle at the end of ST:VI would be a good example of how damage spreads even through active shielding. The shields bear the brundt, but in an uncontrolled energy release, by say a torpedo weapon, some damage will bleed through the shield's particular energy frequency. My 2 cents...carry on!

Joe

[Silverstreak]

I don't agree really, it happened in the movies, DS9 and TOS, and I'm fairly sure it happened on TNG. Perhaps the filter of my mind is saying to me it did, I can't say definitivelly either way, without re-watching all of TNG, but I'm fairly sure it did!

Besides which, Voyager *IS* Startrek and the rules have to cover it, wether you like it or not!

It never happened on TOS, rarely on DS9 and rarely in the movies, not counting the last two as they were influenced by craptastic Voyager.

[Gaunt_Man]

That only applies to Voyager, they sort of ignored the way shields worked for that show altogether. Consoles and stuff exploding never even happened on TNG until the shields went down completely and even then rarely.

What about [TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise]? Klingon K'Vort-class cruisers fire on E-D. Data says "Our shields are still holding. Minor damage to secondary hull."

This happens about 38 minutes into the episode.

Certainly shields can't be <i>bypassed</i> without knowing shield modulation or having superior technology (like the Dominion had up until late 2373), but I think it's pretty clear that even when shields hold, some damage can pass through them. And Coda has rules for this.

[Gaunt_Man]

craptastic Voyager.

Craptastic is a funny word.

[Silverstreak]

What about [TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise]? Klingon K'Vort-class cruisers fire on E-D. Data says "Our shields are still holding. Minor damage to secondary hull."

This happens about 38 minutes into the episode.

Certainly shields can't be <i>bypassed</i> without knowing shield modulation or having superior technology (like the Dominion had up until late 2373), but I think it's pretty clear that even when shields hold, some damage can pass through them. And Coda has rules for this.

Like I said, it rarely happened on TNG.

[Nene_Richards]

Well in TNG they usually dealt with enemies not at the same tech level as Federation/Star Fleet, but when they met about the same such as Ferengi, Klingons and Romulans then there were damage partially through the shields, of course since the Borg are a higher tech level shields meant squat.

The tech level of the race is a factor in this too am I wrong?

Using Yesterday's Enterprise as an example it can be argued that since the war between the Federation and Klingon Empire lasted so long with the Klingons on the winning end, the Klingons found ways through the shields. Since Yesterday's Enterprise is also an alternate reality leaving to the discussion the tech may not be on the same level as they are in the regular TNG timeline.

It probably should be looked at other episodes and not something we can find in the Mirror Universe*pdf.

Just my thought.

[Tobian]

While I do think the timeliness are fuzzy there, generaly speaking they DID have damage get through the shields in ALL of the series (enterprise not withstanding, since they don't have shields hehe) it's just in, yes, Voyager, they overdid it, but again i refer to my point about special effects.. Voyager was on the cusp of better special effects, so they were more daring with what they did, because Voyager was a digital model.

I reiterate.. Because you do not like it is NOT a reason to disclude it from the rules set - as the rules set is neutral, and has to create the best compromise between ALL of the shows. If you want to write out the stuff you don't like, in your home rules, there's nothing stopping you!

[Silverstreak]

I reiterate.. Because you do not like it is NOT a reason to disclude it from the rules set - as the rules set is neutral, and has to create the best compromise between ALL of the shows.

How about the fact MOST Star Trek fans didn't like it?

After all, if it wasn't for crappy Voyager and Enterprise, we'd still have Star Trek on TV.

[Tobian]

That's a contradictory statement.. if it wasn't for the Voyager and Enterprise, there would be no Startrek... as of the end of DS9?! Voyager ran concurrently with DS9 and only finished a year afterwards. If they weren't made nothing better would have replaced them, because it would have been the same producers making whatever else instead... scame crap different name. It was the producers at paramount who made less popular shows, then canned them, due to internal politics.

To the contrary as well several fans disliked the grim and gritty aspect of DS9 and prefered Voyager. Many people I know REALLY liked Enterprise - they all have a huge fanbase.

The point is moot, as you say it did happen in ALL of the shows. The end, full stop, period. Now stop taking the thread off topic !

[Nene_Richards]

I think the reason Voyager did the shield thing, was they have no way of reparing the Voyager on the show making it in their minds plausable, or willing to show battle damage on the ship, even modifying the ship, it was always the same always looking prestine. I think they wrote themselves in a box on that one not afraid of taking the right kind of risks. For a show with potential their writers failed more times than I can count.

As for Enterprise... Everyone I know hated the show. I guess it is the circles we hang out with.

As I stated in what I said, I was bringing up the tech issues in the thread. Tech Level is covered in the Narrator's Guide. I thought that was a factor in the talk, my opinion of using Yesterday's Enterprise an alternative timeline to back the regular timeline's tech effiency, I felt it was a bad example. A long on going war you develope your technology different than in an Age of Diplonacy which is the regular timeline.

That was my thought

[Silverstreak]

That's a contradictory statement.. if it wasn't for the Voyager and Enterprise, there would be no Startrek... as of the end of DS9?! Voyager ran concurrently with DS9 and only finished a year afterwards. If they weren't made nothing better would have replaced them, because it would have been the same producers making whatever else instead... scame crap different name. It was the producers at paramount who made less popular shows, then canned them, due to internal politics.

To the contrary as well several fans disliked the grim and gritty aspect of DS9 and prefered Voyager. Many people I know REALLY liked Enterprise - they all have a huge fanbase.

The point is moot, as you say it did happen in ALL of the shows. The end, full stop, period. Now stop taking the thread off topic !

Actually Voyager ended 2 years, possibly 3, after DS9 finished. I know Voyager and Enterprise had their fans, they just happened to be fans with no taste. It is a well known fact Voyager and Enterprise didn't bring in the audiences that TNG and DS9 did. If they did, Star Trek would still be on TV, that is a fact, not speculation.

As for taking the thread off topic, it takes two to make a debate, don't accuse me of something you won't hone up to yourself. You are as guilty as I.

I think what I said regarding shields make more sense than the rules do. Shields should only be penetrated in extremely rare instances, if ever.

[C5]

I know Voyager and Enterprise had their fans, they just happened to be fans with no taste.

Must.... control.... fist of death!!!