Characters too powerful to start?

[Welshie]

Is it just me, or does anyone else have problems with starting characters?
I'm not sure if my players were cheating, or just adept at power gaming, but it seems to me that the target numbers are way low for the PCs. Skill rolls never became an issue, as it seemed that they all succeeded at everything they tried all the time.

Odd, that.

[Nene_Richards]

Well we are talking about Twinks/Powergamers alot of what I am writing below may come off as negative, but that is what this is about problem players.


My issue when building characters and thus tossing people out is this:

• Players coming up with their own Aliens bring them to you ask to play them. They are overly unbalanced and they can not answer basic questions about the race. This has happened to be more than once. You want to make modifications, because you are the Narrator, the player gets angry because it is not his creation.
  
  I had a player that wanted to play a species out of some Star Trek Books, he only read the first four of the series, but did not read the whole story arch he said it bored him. His GM from a previous game made the race based on the first four books, neither he nor the player read more. There were books later on that talked about the species in more detail. I took what was there and what I read created the species to my design since it was my game. When I asked him questions of the race he really did not know. I told him, to play something else in essense being very kind but forceful, he obviously did not like my design because it was not uber before. He quit because I would not let him play what his GM and friend created for him in a previous game.
  
  Before I start a Star Trek game, I want my players to write their backgrounds first. Why? Most powergamers can not write a decent background. I have come across people that write the strangest weirdest things, I have ever read. When I ask them where they come up with it, their answer? Well I don't know Trek much so I made up everything I needed. I then ask them what of the Star Trek Background packet I created with the Timeline, description of the game. Answer always no time to read it.
  
  Now am I against people creating Aliens for the game? Nope, why I looked at his concept openly but more and more we talked and how he jumped when I made changes to the species and can not answer basic questions that is a problem. I don't make changes all the time, but in that instance the species did have some issues it even was missing a few things that benefited the player that he had issues with!!! That was why it did not work out.
  
  
• Twinks come in shapes and sizes some powergamers try to bully the GM with personality. Those people think the GM should bow to their will let them get away with murder, if things are not going their way and challenging they try to exert themselves to try to make the game run their way easy. This happened to a good frined of mine in the first game he ran, where a player did that too him, even convinced him to use outside stats, give him more skills than everyone else, etc. The player just bullied and had issues with everything trying to be superman manipulating forcing his will on the GM. The GM will tell you, he should have been stronger. In the end the guy was uber powerful, in a battle we were in it did not save him and he died. That player went crazy his uber boy was dead creating a scene threatening the GM. It escaladed to that point. We rarely rolled but he was always Mr. Uber.

They come in all shapes and sizes. Sometimes players don't work out, not every player and GM match even if both are good players or one in good and one is bad. I run very lax games when it starts, but during CC I am stickler for details. I like good thought out characters they become the best characters in the game and I have yet to be proven wrong. Heck if a player can even describe their background and talk about it to me. I count that, but when I run I expect respect as I respect my players. I don't allow twinks pushing me around.

My games are always full once I get a group together because I run great games, I listen to my players take their input, but I do not take everything. I take what works. I award players for coming up with ideas for the game extra exp etc as insentives if I use it. I have awarded my points more than once, the players many times have to adjust that they can have input in the game most GMs don't. I do, but I don't take everything and I do not have issues with anyone tossing me ideas even if I reject all a player's ideas I'll give them a bonus for trying. I create a community with me, but I am the one with the final say. Once the players learn the style I run they have fun for the game is more interactive than anything they have played before.

[Doug Burke]

Is it just me, or does anyone else have problems with starting characters?
I'm not sure if my players were cheating, or just adept at power gaming, but it seems to me that the target numbers are way low for the PCs. Skill rolls never became an issue, as it seemed that they all succeeded at everything they tried all the time.

Odd, that.

There's an easy solution to that. Raise the TNs. Add modifiers, use environmental conditions, whatever. But make it a challenge.

[Tobian]

Well without knowing what your PC's did it's hard to say but I have a few comments about the system..

In Startrek (the TV show) the people depicted are FULLY competent at their job. Harry Kim might be a completelly green Ensign, but aside from confidence and a lack of experience he has no problems actually doing his job. This is especially true of Starfleet officers, because they are the best of the best.. Equally NPC's which show up on the radar, such as Quark, Rom, Garrak, Gul Dukat, Kai Opaka / Winn, etc, all are exceptional individuals.. Ok so players can't be them at the height of their career, from character inception (unless you allow them to be so), but they can be competent from the begining....

However, players being players they will start to look at the packages, compare and contrast, milk the system for everything it is worth untill - they have minmaxed it!

Then what you find is there are certain skills they are UBER at.. but this is the thing.. the fun thing, because they have honed their points down a certain path, they have not made themselves generalists.. and there you have them!

Construct scenarios where they can't use their UBER ability.. Ok great they can get a +10 on a helm roll.. err, we're on an away mission.. not so clever now

It has to be said in certain contexts being uber at character start at certain things just make you a specialist.. For example, it is quite possible to take very high knowledge skills, because you get quite a few freebie points, so you can be a knowledgeable historian or avid reader of Shakespear, but other than knowledge, these skills can't work for you very often, if you're a helm officer!

Players (and GM's) often Mistake 'System OPS' as some sort of catchall skill; well it isn't! you can operate the machines, read what they say and perform functions. However you still need skills around your area of speciality.. a Doctor still needs to have medicine and life sciences, she can't just rely on 'System Ops' medical' - A Helm officer needs space science and astrogation skills.. a Science officer needs several sciences - The computer can tell him there is a class 3 nebula out there, and when the spaceship is being crushed under a gravimetric shear from the nebula it will inform them, however computers never seem to volunteer information, so that's what the science skills are for.. The computer doesn't go "In case you're thinking of going in there, there is a gravimetric shear inside.. just thought you should know." Sure they can go look it up on the computer but sometimes you have to just 'know'.. if you don't know what questions to ask the computer it can't tell you the answers!

Mechanics aside.. it has to be also stressed that the occasions where skill checks are actually important are invariably when there is a huge risk, and when it's very hard. If they pass tests all the time, then don't make it about the tests.. it shouldn't be anyway...

The habit of many players coming from a D&D style environment is you get a 'level' you bump up your uber-killiness and maximise your potential in field of speciality.. You go you hit things, you win, you get more XP and sooner or later you become a semi divine uber god of destruction.. of course in D&D there is always a bigger fish, who's favourite meal is semi divine uber god's of destruction! Startrek, in terms of the setting, is not about this, it is about solving the dilema, conundrum or simply enjoying the story.. When did you actually see a CONN officer fail to pilot the ship.. pretty much never.. except where it served the story. In mechanical terms that's when you throw the players a huge penalty because a huge story ark just hit them in the face! Chasing a smugler ship at high impulse through an asteroid field - it hurts a lot when they fail! BABOOM!

Also there is a huge importance on solving the problem.. Sometimes there simply aren't skill checks they can make to solve a dilema, and this is where roleplaying comes in.. Award experience based on how they solve a dilema. A clasic example could be the TOS episode 'Devil in the Dark' with the Horta, a rock like entity.. or the TNG episode Home Soil, where they discover a homicidal crystal life form! The classic D&D approach is to identify the enemy - kill the enemy - get experience points.. EXCEPT they would only get a paltry amount of experience points because what they should have done is identify the enemy, realised WHY it was attacking, resolve the crisis, and go away friends (ish). No skill roll is going to help a player who blindly follows the find enemy = kill mentality..

Also Have your enemy use tactics too. I'm reminded of a recent D&D game I played in when the players got creamed by a bunch of goblins because a) we were too busy arguing, drawing attention to us and b) they used a battle plan. Never make your enemies dumb lifeless idiots with targets painted on their head, like a game of duck hunt.. have them hide, lie, cheat, use forcefields, lifesign masking. Yeah it's easy to pick up a tricorder and detect a life form miles away.. Not if he's hiding in a Boronite cave with a dampening field, which gives them a -15 test penalty! Being able to succeed on your tricorder roll under normal circumstances is a non issue.. they SHOULD be doing that, but the tricorder doesn't tell them the 4 aliens are hiding in ambush, their tactics skill tells them that, and not everyone remembers to buy it.. or 4 more are hiding, and masking their signatures: the players are so pleased with themselves that they so damned easilly passed the test, they never thought to double check, or use their eyes to look round

[Ineti]

I just adjust the TNs as needed. Star Trek characters are supposed to be competent, and I think Coda does an excellent job of reflecting that.

[Silverstreak]

There's an easy solution to that. Raise the TNs. Add modifiers, use environmental conditions, whatever. But make it a challenge.

Exactly.

[C5]

Well, Trek characters are experts in their field, and the game respects that.
It's quite possible indeed to create a character who, whithout any minmaxing, will get a +10 or +12 modifier in a few skills (+6 in the skill, add a specialisation, and with a corresponding attribute at 10(+2), you already have a flat +10), and this is good. After all, we never saw O'Brien wreck a repair on the show, but we saw him get punched more than once and lose at darts against Bashir . And Troy, although being able to know that someone was lying a few AU away, was unable to prevent the Enterprise D from crashing.

So the first thing is : have varied missions, that will allow any character to shine and sweat alternatively. I don't think a starting character can be powerful in every skill (if so, then some heavy minmaxing was at work and the GM has the right to prevent it), so if a mission alternates combat, science enigmas, and social interactions for instance, while at the same time requiring teamwork (so it's not possible to split too much the team and have the Klingon Dahar master stop the guards while the buffed science officer is fixing the computer), then every one should meet challenge and glory.

And as has been said above, it's quite normal that an expert character in a field can success in routine operations... how many times have we seen LaForge desperately try to beam up the landing party from a perfectly normal M-Class planet with no strange phenomenon nor disturbance ? But even LaForge was breaking a sweat when he was trying to beam the crew from an alien vessel in an ion storm while being fired upon and half the systems offline.
A character can have a +10 modifier in a skill, meaning he will almost often succeed challenging tasks... but with a +20 TN, he needs a rather good roll to succeed, and even then he won't have an outstanding margin.

So the second thing is... challenge. The character may indeed singleshot a bird flying hundred meters away without almost no need to roll... but can he shot the Romulan guard hiding behind the rocks in a cloudy night so easily ?

[Welshie]

Good thoughts, all.

Thanks for the constructive input!