Am I the Only One That Have Players That Want To Play a Section 31 character?

[Nene_Richards]

No I've never had anyone want to play a section-31 operative;but I don't think I'd be that oppossed to it.Bashir only had his starfleet training & Reed only Appeared to have normal training too.Section-31 appeared to me too recuit people who were good in their field,smart,& good at thinking on their feet.No special training or abilities.Yea I know Sloan was good at sneaking around & using a holodeck;but the main characters have done just well in all the Treks,with their normal training.

Yep, but people forget Sloan was a villian/antagonist played by a great character actor. Sloan is not a team player and used people. He was that Lone Wolf character that is uberly powerful, which is why I think there is a charm for that. Alot of players in the community that I am in (not naming where because I know some of them also go here and post) are twinks. I dealt with them glad to see them gone, but that seems to be every game you run down here more twinks than character driven players. Now some twinks speak the talk of character first then they toss Orion/Andorian/Vulcan hybrids (yep got one proposed to me).

I think Section 31 is Lone Wolf draw. Allows them to do everything pull a Trent (name of a character a player had that he wanted to do and be everything in the game). Alot of people are tossing them at me around here. Sad really.

[Tobian]

In any game characters which are specifically designed to be or played as lone wolfs are annoying at best and outright insufferable at worst!

It has to be said that someone who was this antisocial, disliked Starfleet regulations so much, and never wanted to be round peple much.. would have never got through his psychology exam entrance into Starfleet - yes they screen people! people who are wierd, unstable, and maladjusted WILL NOT get into Starfleet. It's something I've had to reinforce to players in the past when I was a GM!

Having abilities like 'wookie rage' or 'Barbarian rage' are not exactly conducive to Starfleet operation, which favours precise tactical missions, not rampaging through their enemies with a great axe, cleaving off people's heads!

Starfleet officers might be nerds, have poor social skills and lack confidence, like Geordi or Barklay, but they can do their job, and perform under pressure, and they work as part of the TEAM. An antisocial ass, who constantly shirks off his given duties, to go on private lone missions, and is always tampering with the security grid, and owns several unlawful devices and programmes in his room is not going to go far in Starfleet. When Sloan tried to recruit Julian, he was only trying to use him BECAUSE he was useful as he was, and as a right thinking moral person, he turned him down!

Another important restriction I have had to enforce in the past is personal weapons.. . Because Worf keeps his Bat'leth in his room, and was seen using it in First Contact, this, some players believe, gives them full justiication to wander round ALL THE TIME with great swords, combat knives and (my personal favourite) some sort of Lightsaber rip off .. Well no.. In todays military, you turned up, on duty, with a bunch of 'uber weapons' they would prompty tell you to remove them, and get your issued weapon, or be sent to the Brig.. Worf kept a personal weapon in his room, and used it for excercise and training on the holodeck, he never used it on duty.. The only reason he used it in FC is because energy weapons only had so many useful shots, so it was an emergency use thing.. Kind of a special case scenario! You would certainly be able to own it, in your quarters, so long as it wasn't illegal (like the varron T disruptor), and you might be given special dispensation to use it on a mission, but just walking around on every day duty, with no threats.. I don't think so!

[JALU3]

When Sloan tried to recruit Julian, he was only trying to use him BECAUSE he was useful as he was, and as a right thinking moral person, he turned him down!

And in an episode Sloan used that upright moralness of LT Bashir to his advantage to advance his mission.

But the way I see Section 31, is more like a very dangerous contact. More dangerous to the person who has the contact then the contact him/herself. Due to the nature of the organization, they must be kept secret, and any attempts at the PC to use their contact to their advantage, and not the other way around, usually leads to things that aren't so pleasent. And neither are the missions that one are asked to perform when that contact does come up and 'tap you'.

They do it cause sometimes there are things that need to be done . . . that maybe you don't want to know about. But that doesn't mean that you invite them over to dinner either.

As my boss has said about certain people, "You have junk yard dogs, and you have your inhouse dogs. Each have their purpose, and their strengths. But never mistake one for the other."
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I had a player once buy tour that had the contact and security clearence. Mainly for that clearence. But classified information is compartmentalized, and only accessable in a need to know basis. Furthermore, imagine what would happen to those who continued to keep trying security networks. Eventually, odds are, they will raise some red flags. And that is never a good thing for the PC.

It's like a character who keeps going to bars to get drunk. Even the mightiest Klingon within to much blood wine will end up in the brig eventually.

[Nene_Richards]

You know reading what you two wrote had me thinking about this and I think that is what you are saying both of you.

Playing a Section 31 character means you are not accountable to anyone. Section 31 answers to no one, but themselves.

I think this another draw to these Lone Wolf players. They do not feel like they need to be accountable to the ship and crew and others just themselves. Selfish roleplaying there. As we know in Star Trek CODA and Icon, mostly CODA the rules really emphasis group tests. But back to what I am saying. They don't want to have any authority to be over them, player or Narrator (even though I will be running Capt. Decker). This is why I think this player that is gone now, refussed Starfleet Intelligence, he had to be accountable to someone there.

It is about accountability to others, this is a big thing with these players. Every Section 31 player that proposed it to me argued with me to the point of them quitting, because I would not allow the Section 31 character in or I kicked them out of my game. Hence the recognizing authority at all.

What I love about Star Trek it requires more team play than anything else. That it is designed for character interplay as well. You have to sit back with your players and discuss the game and your idea. You need to cover things like who is XO or captain, Chief Engineer, etc. You really need to go over the game with everyone get their thoughts and ideas as Narrator as well as the players amongst themselves.

Worf is a bad ass in TNG & DS9 as one of you said even he did not carry his bat'leth all the time even during the Dominion War. Jadzia Dax did not carry a bat'leth much either both she and Worf did in certain special situations. I have had to enforce the equipment mission list in the Starfleet Manual more than once. Even though Worf is the bad ass of established Trek characters in combat (losing the glass jaw Klingon from TNG), he was a team player. He was distant and olaf at times, had issues fitting in mergining his Klingon and Human raised morals together with his Starfleet ones. He sometimes pulled himself away, but he worked with others like Riker on TNG. He even equiped Riker in one episode with a transporter responder in case he was in trouble. Irker and Worf were best friends this became an issue when Worf dated Deanna. Yet with all his dark side like killing Duras in revenge, losing his tempter on more than one occasion, he was always there for the crew bonding with many crew mates, his friends understood sometimes he needed his space. How many times did Worf get in trouble? Picard nearly court-martialed Worf over Duras. Sisko and Starfleet reprimanded Worf for allowing a Sauron Starfleet agent to die, because he was more concerend about Jadzia. Worf won his family's honor and lost it just as fast then joined another house. Worf made a mistake that nearly cost him his career and life if not for the fact the Klingons set him up. Yet, Worf still was still Worf.

Worf is a great example of kick ass combat character in Starfleet but is still an officer with morals even with a darkside as well as can be distant at times. You do not need to play a Klingon raised by humans to pull something like him off. A human trying to follow an old human warrior code: bushido, the version that has changed to modern day not the feudal Japan one, would be interesting and similar to Worf.

These Lone Wolves want Section 31 not to be like Worf like character but accountablity to others. They feel being sneaky like that makes their characters special I think as well, because they are not like the other characters. They don't understand that relaying on being a gimmick being just the Section 31 Spy does not make them special. What makes your character special is how you play it, what you bring to the game through game play, not what secrets you think you hold over the players. How soon before as you said someone would spot something strange with you?

Sloan was always moving around never in the same place for a long period of time. In a game enviroment, as you said spotting the computer illegal accesses would be brought to somone's attention eventually to the captain and XO. I think this latest guy thought that if his Section 31 character was the security chief he would have unlimited computer access to do what he wanted and if not he could cover the tracks, but he was wrong. He failed to remember whenever the security chief had to look at something not in his scope like personal files, he needed the Captain's or XO's authorization and then he also had to give an explination. They can say no, but they do not see it that way, I think. How many times did Worf, Odo, Tuvok and Malcom have to ask the captain's permission to open restricted files during an investigation as well as giving an explenation?

It is weird talking to other Narrators around the country I seem to be the one that gets all these Section 31 Lone Wolves. Guess my area is a freak zone.

[Tobian]

Trust me you are getting fairly standard responses... it comes under the see it - do it category - "I saw this once on the show so I want to do it" not everyone has seen the handful of Section 31 episodes, everyone's seen Worf and Odo. I've seen it a lot, it's common, trust me!

Accountability is exactly what they are after, but as you pointed out: Sloan was a rogue agent who had free reign to go where he wanted, enough gimics and technology to get in and get out - use some people, like Julian, and leave with a mess behind him. Had Julian actually joined his side, he could not have been like Sloan.. leaving a mess in your wake WILL be discovered and linked to you! Playing an actual Sloan is impossible in most roleplaying contexts, because you have to run away, and the story follows the party, not the individual, so you better have a spare character to run! What they fail to realise about the accountability thing is they ARE accountable, to their crew. Section 31 has No safety net, and will not protect them if they make a mistake... If they commit treason; murder; destroy a treaty etc, and get caught, do you think Section 31 will protect them? I think not - they are still just as screwed as if they had done it under their own volition, except it's worse BECAUSE they did it in the name of Section 31! They will lose their career and be taken back to Starfleet command and be interrogated for information!

People miss the point about Worf, and it's a common roleplaying mistake - Flaws are to be overcome, it is the Startrek way, they are NOT meant to be justification for your bad mistakes. If you get into a death rage and kill someone you are still accountable, you can't just shrug your shoulders and say "Klingons get into rages and kill people, so it's not my fault" - it IS your fault, because you didn't overcome your flaw. Worf is in a constant struggle with his genetics, his instincts and his morality versus his Federation friends and Starfleet rules and regulations. Mostly he does exactly what he is supposed to do, and though he has few friends he respects them even when their traditions go against his. When he loses control of his hot temper - bad things happen to him and he is met by consiquences, as you said..

Often with Startrek when you do something it's logged - everything is logged, and it takes an expert to remove all traces of that. the computer will not go to the security chief and snitch on you.. it doesn't care.. but if the security chief goes looking at what you did yesterday because someone noticed you doing something odd or downright bad, then he will find evidence.. Location data, computer log traces, and lots and lots of people with very good memories (people in startrek are always sub geniouses with eidetic memory! ) Or worse they will notice a discongruity - memory checksum errors on log files, meaning they have been edited, people reporting you in different locations, when your com signal teported you in your quarters all night.. all it takes is a couple of slip ups and a competent security officer, and you will be caught.. they may not know exactly what you did, or be able to prove it.. but what happens if they get a Vulcan, who can mind meld, or a psychotricorder!

[Liquidator Queeg]

Oh if anyone is interested, I called the guy for a sit down to go over this. He called me too controlling, I would not let his character grow. I was not open to new and original ideas.

His Science Officer concept because of a childhood accident had cybernetic implant to help stabilize his mind. The cybernetics would allow him to think like a computer and can access computer systems with his mind.

In my experience there are two reasons and two reasons only why players want these types of characters:

1) They are attention whores.
2) They are rules twinks and want to exploit the system for their character's benefit.

And without fail they always claim the GM is close-minded, controlling, and not open to truly unique characters.

My attitude towards them: Screw 'em with a rusty iron rod right in the posterior. Without lube. Burn your character sheet, twink, cause it ain't happening in my game, bub.

LQ

[Nene_Richards]

In my experience there are two reasons and two reasons only why players want these types of characters:

1) They are attention whores.
2) They are rules twinks and want to exploit the system for their character's benefit.

And without fail they always claim the GM is close-minded, controlling, and not open to truly unique characters.

My attitude towards them: Screw 'em with a rusty iron rod right in the posterior. Without lube. Burn your character sheet, twink, cause it ain't happening in my game, bub.

LQ

My best character was not uber unique a very maverick hot shot rookie pilot in the course of 3 years, the character grew and a little of me did as well, the character turned out have a knack for tactics and leadership. So being the youngest character I shot through the ranks becoming the PC leader.

The other guys that tried to do the monkey see and monkey do thing failed miserably at times and/or burned out.

[JALU3]

I think I have a similar situation in the past (as I haven't found a good Star Trek roleplaying group here in San Duiego since I moved back in 2004). One of my players played a PC that was a Star Fleet Medic. A LT (J.G.) (So probably closer to a PA (Physicians Assistant) in skill, at the start. But here was the catch . . . he was a Klingon who had for some reason or another decided to join Starfleet after the Dominion War.

So he kept doing Klingon things . . . going into bars, causing a ruckus . . . not caring for enemy wounded . . . taking more of an active fire fight rather then tending to his charges. And I let him play his character that way.

But as a GM . . . I ran the people higher then his CO and XO. And he got to know several Brig staffs very well . . . earning himself a demotion . . . and the Ir of his Command Staff. Granted his actions made parts of the game focus on him . . . to the dettrement of other players. However, I attempted to use the in game mechanics to teach him that in playing a Starfleet Officer, although the character may have social traits that may oppose some of the regulations, that the regulations still must be followed. He was upset about how he felt that I had singled out his character . . . however, I only roleplayed out the consequences of his action.
----

If you want to avoid this type of roleplaying . . . I can completely understand.

But I say let him have his contact . . . but make him understand that in the purchase, (atleast in the ICON Intellegence Tour of Duty Package), that it doesn't make him a Section 31 agent . . . but one wiht a contact . . . and that one should be careful for what one wishes for. Cause they may not like the results.

[Nene_Richards]

Unfortunately, alot of time I do that I have the player like that , he/she creates an OOC ruckus arguing against such actions. Even though I informed him of the Episode that Spock was on the spot for a court martial, that player still argued it. He/she never really watched Star Trek, he told me but that is not the case...

I prefer to just make it easy, if he is not willing to work with the Narrator boot his ass early.

I just sick of all these twinks that have no idea what roleplaying is.

[LUGTrekGM]

I've never had someone wanting to play a SEC 31 PC, but instead someone wanting to play a Romulan spy, sent to spy on the ship, as an assistant science officer acting vulcan.

I've also had a guy who wanted a lightsaber as an artifact, which was kind of strange, but do-able. An hour into planning his PC, he then said he wanted to learn the Force from it, including telekinetic powers. Ultimately that player was directed to find other gaming opportunities, and when he departed, other players said how relieved they were that I had held firm.

My reply was "We do not need new polayers so badly that we are willing to wreck the ongoing story which is going fine, to add one pushy player, who wants to be a freaking Jedi in Star Trek."


In regards to your guy who changed from a cybered sci off to a sec 31 operative: Drop him, period, end of story. His first chance was his last one.

It's obvious to me that he sees that you or the GM have not stuck by the guns of the "No Sec 31" Rule. The fact that there is even an ongoing discussion / dialogue between both of you illustrates that he has pushy, and manipulative tendencies.
He sees an opening, and he's prying it open, taking advantage of every little bit of compassion he sees. To him, it's a matter of time until he convinces everyone necessary, in order to get his goal.

Add in "You are too controlling" accusations, and he's just playing you.

Now you are on the defensive, and to defend against "Being too controlling," you and GM will be forced to "Relax the rules a bit" (Just for him). I'm sure you feel this already on a few levels.

If that's the rule, that's the rule. Telling you to make up justification for it is BS.

Accusing you of being too controlling "Not letting his character (see also how it is a case of ihs character, as if it already exists, but just needs to be finalized) grow" is also BS.

His character is not yet born until approved and finalized by the GM.

At this point it is a concept. Period, nothing more. And an unworkable one, from the stated rules laid out previously.

I'd just tell him that recruiting is closed for any sort of Sec 31 concept, and invite him to join any number of other sims out there.

[Chabit Rane]

I've never had a group of players that wanted to play Section 31 PCs. I've ran games based on the Tal Shi'ar and Starfleet Intellence though. They run fine and get the "I want to be apart of a super secret organization" thing out of my players systems. Really fun, as long as you plan a campaign around it.

[Nene_Richards]

I've never had someone wanting to play a SEC 31 PC, but instead someone wanting to play a Romulan spy, sent to spy on the ship, as an assistant science officer acting vulcan.

I've also had a guy who wanted a lightsaber as an artifact, which was kind of strange, but do-able. An hour into planning his PC, he then said he wanted to learn the Force from it, including telekinetic powers. Ultimately that player was directed to find other gaming opportunities, and when he departed, other players said how relieved they were that I had held firm.

My reply was "We do not need new polayers so badly that we are willing to wreck the ongoing story which is going fine, to add one pushy player, who wants to be a freaking Jedi in Star Trek."


In regards to your guy who changed from a cybered sci off to a sec 31 operative: Drop him, period, end of story. His first chance was his last one.

It's obvious to me that he sees that you or the GM have not stuck by the guns of the "No Sec 31" Rule. The fact that there is even an ongoing discussion / dialogue between both of you illustrates that he has pushy, and manipulative tendencies.
He sees an opening, and he's prying it open, taking advantage of every little bit of compassion he sees. To him, it's a matter of time until he convinces everyone necessary, in order to get his goal.

Add in "You are too controlling" accusations, and he's just playing you.

Now you are on the defensive, and to defend against "Being too controlling," you and GM will be forced to "Relax the rules a bit" (Just for him). I'm sure you feel this already on a few levels.

If that's the rule, that's the rule. Telling you to make up justification for it is BS.

Accusing you of being too controlling "Not letting his character (see also how it is a case of ihs character, as if it already exists, but just needs to be finalized) grow" is also BS.

His character is not yet born until approved and finalized by the GM.

At this point it is a concept. Period, nothing more. And an unworkable one, from the stated rules laid out previously.

I'd just tell him that recruiting is closed for any sort of Sec 31 concept, and invite him to join any number of other sims out there.

Yeah, I have heard the Romulan Spy thing, never got it, but one of my friends did in a game he was playing in the old FASA system, we play CODA now.

The trouble player quit, for new players I try to see where they are going, but you are right I should have booted him out the door, I just really liked his Science Officer concept, it was a really neat idea, I was hoping to convince him to play that, stupid me, I have GMed for 16 years now, I should have known better. I was clouded by a great character concept, it really was. I have not talked to the guy since he quit, I was pretty upset at his e-mail tirade against me, why deal with him?

Yeah, I had to deal with that again recently, where I kicked the guy out this joker was willing to work with me, etc. CC was great and even talking to him, but when game started... he 180ed. Everything was smooth except start of the game, during and after: I was pretty upset, I actually told him in game, because of things WE discussed before game, that he was not playing in character. I have never done that in a game before ever. Let's say that was a bad place, he completely did not listen to what we talked about then after game claimed we did not talk about those things, which was of course in front of my spouse a player in the game. That is just another set of stupid.

I've never had a group of players that wanted to play Section 31 PCs. I've ran games based on the Tal Shi'ar and Starfleet Intellence though. They run fine and get the "I want to be apart of a super secret organization" thing out of my players systems. Really fun, as long as you plan a campaign around it.

Bingo! Unless planned around it, flying around in a recently undrydocked Ambassador Class vessel to patrol the NZ from threats to the Starfleet/Federation is not much of a spy game. Young crew (everyone wants to be younger Starfleet Officers and yet I am allowing older too) around a Vulcan captain (changed from my original human concept last week). Think a Vulcan, Honor Harrington. This would work better with my player's concepts.

Heck, I am using Fragile Peace (yes I got the name right this time) from LUG to help plot point this out. I say action/morality game. How can that be confussed with a spy game? Maybe people just do not want to have ethics.

[Pericles]

I've also had a guy who wanted a lightsaber as an artifact, which was kind of strange, but do-able. An hour into planning his PC, he then said he wanted to learn the Force from it, including telekinetic powers. Ultimately that player was directed to find other gaming opportunities, and when he departed, other players said how relieved they were that I had held firm.

My reply was "We do not need new polayers so badly that we are willing to wreck the ongoing story which is going fine, to add one pushy player, who wants to be a freaking Jedi in Star Trek."


I'm so dumbstruck by this that I really don't have words. Had the guy not heard there already is a Star Wars RPG? I guess there is just no shortage of twinks regardless of genre and system.

[Pericles]

I've also had a guy who wanted a lightsaber as an artifact, which was kind of strange, but do-able. An hour into planning his PC, he then said he wanted to learn the Force from it, including telekinetic powers. Ultimately that player was directed to find other gaming opportunities, and when he departed, other players said how relieved they were that I had held firm.

My reply was "We do not need new polayers so badly that we are willing to wreck the ongoing story which is going fine, to add one pushy player, who wants to be a freaking Jedi in Star Trek."

I'm so dumbstruck by this that I really don't have words. Had the guy not heard there already is a Star Wars RPG? I guess there is just no shortage of twinks regardless of genre and system.

[Nene_Richards]

I'm so dumbstruck by this that I really don't have words. Had the guy not heard there already is a Star Wars RPG? I guess there is just no shortage of twinks regardless of genre and system.

Yeah, I heard about people wanting lightsabers in Trek. I even have heard of Trek games with damned Jedi.

I really can not see a lightsaber as an artifact as much as advance tech, we are talking about a weapon that cuts through anything AND a long energy blade. How the hell do you compensate for the lack of balance?

Star Trek = Sci Fi
Star Wars = Sci Fantasy

Two do not mix, I have no problem bringing in some sci fi concepts in the game. I am a big Honor Harrington fan so yes I would be open to it.

What I find amusing are GMs allowing in something from another sci fi and NOT knowing anything about it. That I don't get.