Am I the Only One That Have Players That Want To Play a Section 31 character?

[LUGTrekGM]

The deal was this was in an online game community of perhaps 50 people, total. Fully 90% of it was d20 (D&D, Modern, or Spycraft, in that order).

MY goal was to run something alternative.

At one point, I was running three Trek RPG games a week, consisting of

An Excelsior Class Battleship
A Miranda/Reliant Class Sciences Cruiser
A small Colony Trade Outpost, on a desert planet.

But yeah, he wanted a Jedi in Star Trek, no lie.

TO balance it out, Basically, I was gonna allow the lightsaber to be a phaser used only in melee, with a range of 2 meters. My thought was "Sure, run up on someone with it, and you are a glowing mass from the bad guy firing a disruptor 20 feet away."

But when I said "Okay, so you eventually would like to be this sciences officer, who, when enemy boarding actions happen, you are flipping people across the bridge rails with your mind. And he's not a Vulcan."

His reply was "Yes, exactly. How cool is that?"

So I said, "Well depsite how cool of an experience in cross-genre gaming it might be for you, personally, it doesn't fit my series concept."

He kept pushing it, and was in fact delaying our scheduled game, so I had to ask him to go.

Since then, I have not even entertained the idea of lightsaber-like artifacts.

[Tobian]

Lightsbers are one aspect of Wars that make no sense in Trek. To do the things a lightsabre would do it would use up a Phaser cell in minutes.

"Sorry captain, I can't give you full speed, Ensign Teh_Jedi is recharging his lightsaberipoff again!"

I have run games and played in games where people want to come in and play Jedi?!?!?! I can honestly only assume that they want to be unique: I.e. if they played in a Wars game, there would also be all the OTHER people playing Jedi

As I've said, it's in the see it - want it category - they have seen it, so they want it, and to hell with 'sense' or ' genre'. All I can suggest is you make the section of your entry form say "NO MIXING OF GENRES IN THIS GAME, YES THIS MEANS NO JEDI OR LIGHTSABRES" in size 60 font repeatedly, and flashing in case they missed the first 20

That said I have had several players who play the game who basically never really watched Trek, but just joined because of a friend or because they were attracted by brights shiny lights ? So yes, saying to them "Ok, now go and watch 300 + episodes, then maybe you'll GET why you can't play a Jedi", can be a bit hard.

I suggest if you get another player wanting to play a jedi/own a lightstaber, then you say yes.. then proceed to detail all combat takes place at ranges of 500 metres or more, and any non standard weapons, used on duty, will face the usual penalties: aka the bridge. Also point out Lightsabers are completelly useless against forcefields, then proceed to use them all the time

[Tobian]

As an adennum, have all enemies use their phasers on wide beam setting permanently.. I mean if there is this 1337 Teh_Jedi running about i would if I were them! let them try and deflect wide beam phaser shots Or just use anesthazine gas and focrefields

[toadmage]

I hope that i am understanding the post . I have not ran many star trek games . The idea of trek is to work together to make a world for all. I am of two minds on this .

first mind is that section 31 is this the idea of better world the wrong way. The better world needs shadows to help it along .

Second mind is that section 31 holds the dream of the worlds very close to their hearts. We take the actions needs to save the fedaration by any means. We maybe do evil to end evil but we are not evil in own souls.

A player wanting to be part of section 31 depends on the player. Are they the type who loves back stadding , stealing or takes any action to save lives of the party ? The rest of players are important to , will they understand the differents between the player and the chacarter.

[JALU3]

My question is . . . why would any player . . . be PART of Section 31. From on screen evidence . . . those who are part of this ultra-secret organization . . . they are few and far between. Fewer still are actually part of the organization, but are only contacts whom this organization uses to advance their purpose, or a specific mission. And if someone who is working for Section 31 is found, they have no support network what so ever, and are disavowed by anyone who may or may not have connection to this organization.

Therefore being contacted by Section 31 . . . isn't everything it's cracked up to be. This is why in the ICON Intellegence Tour of Duty, Section 31 is an optional part of the package ONLY as a contact. If anything . . . this contact works opposite of a normal contact . . . as one doesn't contact that person, that person contact them, and rarely if ever.

I had one or two characters in my CSUS game who purchased this contact. But all it was was background . . . as how this contact plays . . . as I stated before . . . works differently then normal contacts. And if anything, maybe a long-term liability.

[Nene_Richards]

Section 31 say they are all about the Federation's ideals, but in DS9 we see more than once they have their own agenda.

These guys would assasinate a Starfleet Captain for instance or even the President of the Federation if they saw them as a threat to their version of the ideals of the Federation Charter.

Right now, we have debated what the Constitution of the United States means, what those who created it meant. There are many standpoints from all sides saying this is what that document means. Watch C-SPAN for instance or pick up a couple of books on interpretting the Constitution. This would be no different in Star Trek, then you add in Alien ideals and interpretations to the charter?

I am a huge Robert Ludlum fan for 16 years, Tom Clancy, Clive Cussler, etc. I like spy novels and movies, but whenever their is a shadow company like Section 31, they have their own hidden agenda, their own perversion of the Federation Charter and what they think it means.

That was more than once indicated in DS9 they had their own agenda and would do anything to get what they thought the job needed to be done: the virus weapon against the Founders for one. Second Sloan said in the first Section 31 episode where he tried to recruit Basher: "We are not part of Starfleet. We work outside of those restrictions." We get further indications of this through the series when Admiral Ross said, "In this instance you can just say... we had the same goal." in the Romulan Mole episode.

Also a group like this would have a small tight group; not to large and not too small, but they look for what they deem as threats to the Federation to have a character being a Section 31 spy they are looking at the crew as threats to the Federation. They could not spare an operative that long without reason. Why so small to keep the loyalty; their secrecy; and infiltration from outside agencies that may have discovered their covert existence.

Section 31 is not playable unless the game centers around a Section 31 unit. Most games are about being on a Starfleet Vessel dealing with different planets from Diplomacy to Support to most anything.

That is my opinion considering there is not much written on or shown of Section 31. I am basing this off the spy novels fiction and non fiction I have read over the years looking at it through a Star Trek Narrator's eyes.

[JALU3]

A player who plays a character woes sole purpose is Section 31 . . . will not be a permanent character. On screen evidence shows that true permenant Section 31 assets . . . do not remain at a perticular location for any considerable amount of time . . . therefore reducing the chance of creation connections by which that asset could be tracked down. Furthermore, if a character is tapped for a Section 31 connected mission, the nature of the mission, may, more then likely, be something that if found out by the rest of the crew . . . be something that would make that character difficult to work with in the future.

That is what if the mission was done in a way that other crewmembers would view that person negatively for doing what that mission required. Or maybe that mission was done in a way that may set up the crew to be unknowing martyers. Or maybe it is against the mission that the ship has been assigned . . . or maybe it could be a mission that would unknowingly put the ship at risk . . that would provide an overall gain to the federation . . . but in a manor which a federation ship would not normally take.

The reason why the Section 31 missions didn't make Dr. Bashir a rouge amoungst the crew is because these missions didn't effect the crew directly. If anything the DRs genetic alteration history was more of a hinderence with intercrew interaction then any thing he possible did during his Section 31 missions. Furthermore, when it was found that something that Section 31 did, did effect one of his friends . . . he used those connections to help out his friends.

So it is more the nature of the character . . . then the actual contact with Section 31 that should be the ultimate deciding factor regarding whether a character is allowed that contact.

But as far as a Section 31 based game . . . I wouldn't advise against it . . . as the Nature of Section 31, by the way it conducts itself, are against the ideals of the Federation, even if the Federation ultimately gains from those actions. (IE (although not Section 31) CAPT Sisko's falsification of recordings given to the Romulan Senator) (Great episode by the way)). Starfleet Intellegence is onething but an ultra secret organization is completely another.

[Tobian]

It has to be said too, that a section 31 character would have pretty much nothing to do on a regular starship, even one as 'famous' as the Federation Flagship.. How does a Section 31 character pursue his agenda if that month they are cataloguing gaseous cloud anomolies on the edge of Federation space?

The only real envoronment for any kind of 'permanent' Section 31 agent would be a hub, nexus, or as a deep cover mole on a planet. DS9 was such a nexus, as it was the hub of galactic events which were going on at the time. Attatched to the Defiant the Doctor was present at some of the most important future-changing events of the age, and had access to the only known Founder. Those were all extenuating circumstances, and had he joined the cause his usefullness would have ended once the war was over.

It also raises another point.. Section 31 agents will only really have anything to do if there is such a time of conflict, a crisis, a threat to the federation. They will spend 99% of their time NOT doing anything on purpose, but instead gathering information, getting contacts and taking notes, preciselly as doing these sorts of things do not raise suspicions, they have to do their 'day job'.

In turn this creates the complication that for anyone to actually use his section 31 contacts, he has, in turn, to create a 'world changing' event every other story, or his character will have nothing to do. A Section 31 agent would purposefully not involve himself, or his agenda in ever mission a ship does, because 90% of those missions are nothing to do with a threat to the Federation. So basically we come back to the 'cente of attention' seeking person, who basically wants to throw in story arks, where he is the 'hero' (or rather anti hero) of the piece, and by the nature of the character not only will he derail the story, but probably create a weekly 'terrible threat to the federation' which he has to hugelly interfere with, and the crew has to, yet again, pretend he has nothing to do with.

If anyone made such a character in my game he wouldnt last long, as he would be found out !

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Section 31 is a splinter group of the Tal Shiar operating within the Federation. It's ulitmate goal is domination of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants by a Vulcan-led empire espousing a fusion of Surak's philosophy of logic - inner control - and Romulan religious edicts of political power – external control.

Section 31 is a fusion of black ops agents of Pre-UFP Earth and the Andorian Am Tal, formed with the initial mission statement of covertly undermining Klingon power throughout the Quadrant.

Section 31 is a conspiracy of genetically augmented Humans, hiding themselves throughout human society, contacting others of their kind and secretly guiding the Federation's development. They are completely assured of their nobility and higher evolutionary position over the less advanced species of the galaxy.

Section 31 is an alien organization of non-corporeal beings that has infiltrated humanity, and now the Federation, millenia ago. Their purpose is nebulous, but the few who've been able to trace Section 31's origins point to secretive cults in Egypt and Asia Minor who have manipulated political organizations for all of recorded human history.

[JALU3]

Section 31 is a splinter group of the Tal Shiar operating within the Federation. It's ulitmate goal is domination of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants by a Vulcan-led empire espousing a fusion of Surak's philosophy of logic - inner control - and Romulan religious edicts of political power – external control.

Section 31 is a fusion of black ops agents of Pre-UFP Earth and the Andorian Am Tal, formed with the initial mission statement of covertly undermining Klingon power throughout the Quadrant.

Section 31 is a conspiracy of genetically augmented Humans, hiding themselves throughout human society, contacting others of their kind and secretly guiding the Federation's development. They are completely assured of their nobility and higher evolutionary position over the less advanced species of the galaxy.

Section 31 is an alien organization of non-corporeal beings that has infiltrated humanity, and now the Federation, millenia ago. Their purpose is nebulous, but the few who've been able to trace Section 31's origins point to secretive cults in Egypt and Asia Minor who have manipulated political organizations for all of recorded human history.

????

These are possible origins . . . but what does this have to do with this thread, and PCs playing characters who are either part of Section 31, or have a contact with said organization

[The Tatterdemalion King]

????

These are possible origins . . . but what does this have to do with this thread, and PCs playing characters who are either part of Section 31, or have a contact with said organization

How much do we know about Section 31? Only that a form of them exist both in the 2370s and 2150s, and that they perform politically sensitive covert ops for Earth/the UFP. You're free to define who and what s31 is, and most importantly, what they want. Option one and option three will be working for totally different aims.

Now, if one of my characters said, "I want to play a member of Section 31," I would say, "Fine." S31's nature, ops, goals, whatever are all up to you. If you wish s31 to be a heroic organization, then the character will be given opportunities to use s31 methods and contacts to achieve benefits for the UFP.

If you don't think it is a heroic organization, and I do not, you can use them as a source of strain on the character as they are called to do ops or provide help for ops that run counter to their, and the Federation's, ideals.

As for the examples, these are all things that Section 31 could be. In the course of interacting with s31, the characters are exploring new territory, and i think there should be something there for them to discover. The first, third and fourth options set up an eventual confrontation with whoever masterminds the conspiracy, in order to defeat them. The second and fourth options may lead to a confrontation where the old guard must be convinced that their strategy is out of place or out of date.

Of course, if you just want to screw with the players, you can use all four options. Two characters could even be part of different s31 factions.

So the player wants to be part of an organization that increases drama, I'd say let them. Personally, I'd make it a tragic situation, as s31 seems mostly sympathetic to the crypto-fascists among Trekkies. Having one could lead to intra-party conflict, of course, and whether or not your players can be trusted to deal with that maturely (or even find it enjoyable) is something only you can know.

YMMV, of course. If you're playing a crew lost in the Gamma Quadrant, s31 affiliation would be a moot point. All this would be best served in a politically-charged situation, like the Triangle, Rigel IV or the sector from A Fragile Peace.

[JALU3]

OK . . . well then . . . this changes the nature of the beast . . . and you do bring up a good point . . . how well does an ultra secret organization know itself . . . like any group there are factions . . . even in the most like minded group . . . unless enforced by some mechanism within the group . . . there will always be different trains of thought.

Therefore it does set up a situation where different branchs of the orginization maybe working for different goals. However, this creates a black ops environment where different elements, claiming this mandate of Section 31, maybe attempting to become the superior element . . . and since they aren't bound by the same moral/ethical standards personnally that other NPCs are . . . they may act in unconventional ways to advance their elements control of said organization.

As for the nature of Section 31, it is my belief that their ultimate goal is the expansion and continuing existance of the Federation and its ideals . . . however, they do so in a way that would be considered distastful, if not unethical by those who would normally work in the light/open. Maybe because, a past organization/political structure which the founding members supported failed to continue exactly because it wasn't willing to due to self-imposed limitations based upon that.

I guess it goes to . . . how far are you willing to go . . . what are you willing to do . . . to save the nation/ideals/persons that you hold dear? Ignore the Prime Directiive? Make it look like a foreign dignitary was killed by a third party? Allow the eventual death of an entire species? . . . How far, is to far?

[LUGTrekGM]

Section 31 was set up as a parrellel of real-world espionage, to provide a counterpoint to the Idealistic "Good-Guy" Starfleet, such that "The End Justifies the Means."

Going into who it comprises, what it is, what are it's goals, specifically, won't accomplish much, since it is always "We [SEC31] are whatever Starfleet isn't."

Of course, it can be whatever you want, and thus, each referee will handle it differently.

It's just yet anther enemy for the Good Guys, after they ran out of Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Dominion, etc., except that now instead of being an overt enemy, it's an interior, covert, psychological one.

For example to mess up a ship, all that would be needed was for an Admiral who has ties to Sec 31 to transmit a message to a ship, "Captain, we have good reason to believe that your ship has a covert team of Section 31 Operatives aboard it."

In the end, characters being what they are, someone who makes a wrong decision that potentially screws the mission, is now more easily labeled as a tool of the conspiracy.

For that matter, any contact any character has could be Section 31, just not labeled as such.

Some groups might like this style of play, most won't be able to handle it.

I'm personally against having a spy inside the ship's company, except as an NPC.

There is too much likelihood of breaking the group's dynamics, by shredding the social contract.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

There is too much likelihood of breaking the group's dynamics, by shredding the social contract.

'Course, that's something you have to deliniate within the contract. Some groups require player-knowledge of secrets, regardless of character knowledge, while others have an implicit or explicit understanding that characters may be working at cross-purposes to each other. This can vary with campaign, of course–player knowledge in Delta Green should be limited, but a four-colour supers game would be weird with subterfuge and intra-party mystery. Applying this to Trek, there's a reason that DS9 was the show that introduced s31–it could maintain the mood without it seeming out of place. TNG 'conspiracy' is totally different; they unroot the mother-bug and kill it by the end of the episode.

It's just yet anther enemy for the Good Guys, after they ran out of Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Dominion, etc., except that now instead of being an overt enemy, it's an interior, covert, psychological one.

Trek has a history of presenting 'enemyhood' as a temporary, subvertible state. You win not by exterting yourself through competition and power relationships between cultures, but by redefining the relationship between the cultures. Looking at s31 through this lens, it becomes necessary to understand s31 (both as narrator and eventually, as players) and with that comes the question, 'who are they?' What comes next depends on what you, as a narrator, have decided s31 is.

[JALU3]

From following this thread, I find it interesting that many here are quick to villianize Section 31 . . . as something counter to everything that the see Star Trek to be. Now, don't get me wrong, they don't play by the rules the way I would prefer any group to follow. However, they are not the white night . . . that is for certain.

Although this is straying off topic . . . and more of a scenario. Although Section 31 may or may not be well meaning, depending on how you view them . . . they definatly don't conduct themselves in a way that would be pleasing to most ST RPGers. However, what if an NPC who has a connection to Section 31, and who in their act does so in a way that would be seen as unethical/imoral/unlawful . . . does something that ultimatly benifits the crew and/or the federation . . . in a way that could not be achieved otherwise. For instance . . . what if due to that Section 31 induced act, the PCs are saved . . . or their loved ones are saved.