Astrology/Astronomy in Middle earth?

[Cpt. Lundgren]

I have been thinking about throwing together a small LotR game to get some friends back into gaming. But I intend to add some plot hooks for a larger campaign (two actually, the LotR campaign will set some seeds for a modern/near future campaign).

The plans are based around some random thoughts...
* The Comment that ME is pre-historical earth
* Morgoth was thrown into the void (which could be space)
* The idea I found in an old thread about Sauron having a daughter (but I will make her half Numenorian to pass as human) and have her as a servant of Morgoth
* Morgoth would easily be defeated if he came back as he would be weak and lack powerful servants
* If the Valar, Maiar and elves was so sure Morgoth wasn't a threat so they stopped paying attention, he could regain his power before they could act
* I have found no information of any other astronomical body except the sun and the moon and every mention of anyone working with astrology is fan made.
* The claim that there has been some kind of huge global catastrophe 10.000BC
* Sauron would never share power if he would get away with not to
* Who said that the hobbits was guided by the forces of good

One vital part of the plot is that there is no other planet in the solar system until the end of the 4th age. I could just say that there is none. But I would prefer to be able to back up the claim, or at least be as sure as possible that there is no evidence of the opposite.

So basically, has anyone found any text by Tolkien that mention astronomy, astrology or anything else related to this?

[Ineti]

So basically, has anyone found any text by Tolkien that mention astronomy, astrology or anything else related to this?

Do you mean characters in the world checking out the stars, or whether Tolkien included astronomy in his world-building?

If it's the former, there are a couple quotes in the book that mention people checking out the stars and being curious about them. I think Ghan-buri-Ghan was one of them. So, there is an interest in star-lore (and the Paths of the Wise supplement even includes a new skill description for Lore: Star-lore.

If it's the latter, I'm honestly not sure. I haven't read all of the Histories of Middle-earth volumes, so there might be some astronomy stuff in there I haven't seen yet.

[Cut]

But I intend to add some plot hooks for a larger campaign (two actually, the LotR campaign will set some seeds for a modern/near future campaign).

Your idea sounds very interesting. Could you at some point shed some more light on the matter what you developed and how the chronicle ran? It sounds so intriguing.

[Tobian]

I don't know if Stars and cosmology have any place in a LOTR setting other than from a medieval mindset.. I just can't imagine the world ever developing space travel It is a world where they may literally be flat, riding on the back of 4 turtles... It's much like going 'into the west' is much more magical, and metaphysical than just sailing there, how it is barred is not clear, but it simply may be 'not there' to anyone who is not invited

it does however bode for Lovecraftian red-star concepts.. where a new star has formed.. Don't forget heavenly objects are metaphirically represented in their lores.. the sun and moon are not astronomical objects, but astrological, so equally a star could in fact be an exiled god, attempting to exert his small influence, like the many mysteries of the Moon and Lunacy? The world was originally built using twin lamps, of magical construction, which lit the world, rather than a 'moon and sun'. These were huge great trees, who's last fruit made the moon and the sun.. Maybe taking this metaphore he stole the 'bite from the apple' which is missing from the moon hehe

With regards to the Hobits.. Taking the original story, they were subjugated and industrialised.. Now while they did fight back and kick out their new masters, there's nothing to say an enterprising Hobbit might want some of that power for himself. Also while hobits are neither particularly 'good' or 'evil' but representing more of a fragment of an idyl, a simple better time, drawing on metaphores of the industrialisation of the west, and the lost of the pastoral idyl, in essence, they were afforded that luxury by the hand of Gandalf.. He left at the end of the Third age.. who protects them now! Can they remain so untouched, especially because they are now so much more closelly tied with the affairs of men! They are also somewhat of an anomaly, much as Tom Bombadil is in the cosmology of middle Earth.. Much is said about the history of men and Elves and the various echelons leading from the creator god down through the gods, lesser gods, imortals, and mundanes.. hobits are pretty much a... Huh... Tom Bombadil, while perhaps being hinted at as one or another god, is really a metaphore for something, beyond conventional thinking, something ... else... which is why he is left out of the Peter Jackson Trilogy. Perhaps they are not meant to fit; maybethat opens out in-roads for stories!

[Cpt. Lundgren]

I don't know if Stars and cosmology have any place in a LOTR setting other than from a medieval mindset.. I just can't imagine the world ever developing space travel It is a world where they may literally be flat, riding on the back of 4 turtles... It's much like going 'into the west' is much more magical, and metaphysical than just sailing there, how it is barred is not clear, but it simply may be 'not there' to anyone who is not invited

Originaly, Arda was flat. But Eru transformed the world but didn't place the undying continent on its surface. Thats why only the elves can find it. I am not sure how accurate the Encyclopedia of Arda is, but this information is acctually vital to what I had in mind

Do you mean characters in the world checking out the stars, or whether Tolkien included astronomy in his world-building?

If it's the former, there are a couple quotes in the book that mention people checking out the stars and being curious about them. I think Ghan-buri-Ghan was one of them. So, there is an interest in star-lore (and the Paths of the Wise supplement even includes a new skill description for Lore: Star-lore.

If it's the latter, I'm honestly not sure. I haven't read all of the Histories of Middle-earth volumes, so there might be some astronomy stuff in there I haven't seen yet.

While the former is interresting, it is the latter I am after. Astrology, the art of telling the future from looking at the stars, would require that something is moving up there. If something is moving up there, someone would believe it had a meaning and astrology would have been created in an attempt to dechiper it.

With regards to the Hobits.. Taking the original story, they were subjugated and industrialised.. Now while they did fight back and kick out their new masters, there's nothing to say an enterprising Hobbit might want some of that power for himself.

Actually, what I ment to say was, who said that the possible hidden force, that assisted Bilbo in finding the ring and Frodo to destroy it, was a force of good. The evil we know could be blocking a greater evil.

Your idea sounds very interesting. Could you at some point shed some more light on the matter what you developed and how the chronicle ran? It sounds so intriguing.

It is a lot of missing pieces if I am to tie this together to something interesting for the players. There is the background plot, an almost 20000 year long scheme to bring Morgoth back, and the two campaigns/chronicles as two time snapshots in this.

The first chronicle is about 3000 years into that scheme (year 15 or so, forth age), where the PCs ends up as emplyees to some sort schoolars in Minas Tirith. A lot of mission based adventures based on searching for lost lore, hunting the remaining forces of Mordor and Isengard and acting as messengers. From time to time will hey get glimpses of the background plot. I.e. they will stumble over something that indicates that the faiding that have made the elves to leave is artificially induced. Maybe they even realize that the messages they have delivered to the elves, asking them to stay and aid the humans, only have increased their wishes to leave.
Preferable do they leave something behind that the characters in the other campaign could find, giving a player a "wtf?" moment

Between the two campaigns does the Valar drain ME of all magic except a few fragments here and there. Eru reshapes the world, which throws humanity into the stone age and all knowledge of what once where are lost into oblivion. Eru and the Valar creates a false history of what has been, and new physical rules (including new lifeless planets) to keep mankind busy if they ever manage to crawl out of the stonage, so they not will find out about the true history of the world. Without magic, there is no possibility to summon down the exiled entity that now is stuck on Mars instead of floating in the void. This marks the end of the forth age and the beginning of the fifth. The world truly belongs to mankind now as even the Valar leaves for the undying lands and not looking back.

Second Chronicle and a lot of ages later. It is now the 21th century and the talk of the day is the lift-off for the first manned trip to mars. The problem is, someone will insist on joining them on the way back

Well... something like that anyway... Call it an early draft.

[Tobian]

Lol reminds me of some of the World of Darkness core rulebook, with the 'god machine' concept - cool

As an interesting twist.. what happens if Istari, Dwarves, Numenorians, hobbits and Elves do in fact live on, in 'lost world' like locations Or even just among us, maybe not even knowing who or what they are Perhaps he lives on the dark side of the moon?!

You have to remember with Astrology - interpreting it is not the same thing as understanding it from the 20th + Century science point of view.. Mars is a red dot in the sky which moves more than other stars, and is much brighter. In ancient times they had many theories of shells of stars and planets rotating round earth etc. Having an accurate model of astronomy just makes predicting what is going to happen on your astrology chart much easier, but tradition, culture and mysticism tells you what that MEANS.. Mars rising in the dawn sky through the aquarius.. has symbological meaning, which means nothing to astronimers and viceversa You don't need to know mars is actually a planet to make astrology work!

[Cpt. Lundgren]

As an interesting twist.. what happens if Istari, Dwarves, Numenorians, hobbits and Elves do in fact live on, in 'lost world' like locations Or even just among us, maybe not even knowing who or what they are Perhaps he lives on the dark side of the moon?!

What would the point be to base it on ME if they where not lurking around somewhere? Most (all?) of the elves and Istari are in the Undying land. I haven't descided if that continent would be (or more exactly the entry/exit point) in the Atlantic or in the Pacific. I am playing with the idea that either Hawaii or Iceland are a result of the instability this creates (the seal mentioned below might cause vulcanic activities).
Anything intelligent, but not human, have been hunted for the past 12000 years and any remaining individuals would stay well hidden and consider paranoia as a healthy trait.
Somewhere, there would be a seal that could bring magic back to the world (well, two, one that Saurons daughter created to make the elves fade and leave ME, and one that the Valar made to lock the remaining magic to the Undying lands).

You have to remember with Astrology - interpreting it is not the same thing as understanding it from the 20th + Century science point of view.. Mars is a red dot in the sky which moves more than other stars, and is much brighter. In ancient times they had many theories of shells of stars and planets rotating round earth etc. Having an accurate model of astronomy just makes predicting what is going to happen on your astrology chart much easier, but tradition, culture and mysticism tells you what that MEANS.. Mars rising in the dawn sky through the aquarius.. has symbological meaning, which means nothing to astronimers and viceversa You don't need to know mars is actually a planet to make astrology work!

I know. I just used that knowledge to work from the other end In a lot of stories you have direct references to astrology, or at least indirect ("it is written in the stars" and such). The absence of such comments could indicate that there isn't anything that changes position up there, that all of the "stars" are static. A planet would have been percieved as a moving star, and people would try to read something into it.

[Tobian]

Iceland! For two reasons.. For one, the original Journey to the centre of the Earth was themed around Iceland, the idea that a huge fissue opened up, and a route could be found to the centre of the earth.. The place is also a wonderfully dramatic location from which to draw up epic stories... the land of fire and ice!

That and it's general location suggests Numenor.. Perhaps Morgoth sowed the seeds that Numenor would once again rise from the sea. While physically and achaeologically nothing from that time could remain, the Numenorians had the ability to travel to the Undying lands.. they failed by an act of the gods, but then if you turn this on it's self.. in an age when magic has all but gone, and the old gods have more or less no influence in the world.. that magic which does remain may be unstoppable by the gods. So an Numenorian artifact which allows someone to travel to the undying lands could not be blocked by the Valar, because their power doesn't work in the 'real' world anymore. Perhaps it is a conspiracy by Morgoth, to posess it, so he can lay siege to the old gods, and reclaim the undying lands.. if that destroys the world, he doesn't care

In mythological pantheons, the gods are always said to be 'the daughter of' or 'the father of' etc.. But they never share any kind of boilogical link, and may not actualy be familially related in our mortal sense.. they were all there at the beginning, but human nature created a construct around them, and placed them in a heiarchy and family constructs. All of the Ainur were created by an the breath of Illuvator, and they organised themselves into a hierarchy. It's also interesting that when Elves and men had children, they could chose to be either human or elven, they were not a half breed (so even though Elrond was called 'half elf' he was a full elf in all actual senses) so genetics are irelevant, mortals are beings made from the stuff of ephemera and magic. My point is though.. can the gods have children? There is no evidence of them having done so, because they are immortal spirits? Perhaps instead Morgoth invested some of his power into Numenor or a person within Numenor, or a line of Numenorians... In the same way that Sauron invested part of his being in to a ring. Perhaps then the 'daughter of Sauron' might not even be an actual person, but a lineage, who may know nothing about their fate, abilities or even want to aid Morgoth.. which could make for some interesting roleplaying opportunities!

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Iceland! For two reasons.. For one, the original Journey to the centre of the Earth was themed around Iceland, the idea that a huge fissue opened up, and a route could be found to the centre of the earth.. The place is also a wonderfully dramatic location from which to draw up epic stories... the land of fire and ice!

Reminds me of an TV interview I once saw. They asked a very old man fron Iceland what he thought was the greatest invention of all. The answer, "Rubber boots"

That and it's general location suggests Numenor.. Perhaps Morgoth sowed the seeds that Numenor would once again rise from the sea. While physically and achaeologically nothing from that time could remain, the Numenorians had the ability to travel to the Undying lands.. they failed by an act of the gods, but then if you turn this on it's self.. in an age when magic has all but gone, and the old gods have more or less no influence in the world.. that magic which does remain may be unstoppable by the gods. So an Numenorian artifact which allows someone to travel to the undying lands could not be blocked by the Valar, because their power doesn't work in the 'real' world anymore. Perhaps it is a conspiracy by Morgoth, to posess it, so he can lay siege to the old gods, and reclaim the undying lands.. if that destroys the world, he doesn't care

I have been playing with the idea that there should be a possibility to enter the Undying lands that way. But I didn't thought of connecting it to Numenor. Thats great! I have to think about Morgoths involvement, but I do now have a deciding factor. If it is "natural," which would mean a leaking seal, it would become a paradise island. If it is a creaton by an agent of Morgoth, it is a barren place that would be impossible to live at if it wasn't for the heat generated of the vulcanos,

In mythological pantheons, the gods are always said to be 'the daughter of' or 'the father of' etc.. But they never share any kind of boilogical link, and may not actualy be familially related in our mortal sense.. they were all there at the beginning, but human nature created a construct around them, and placed them in a heiarchy and family constructs. All of the Ainur were created by an the breath of Illuvator, and they organised themselves into a hierarchy. It's also interesting that when Elves and men had children, they could chose to be either human or elven, they were not a half breed (so even though Elrond was called 'half elf' he was a full elf in all actual senses) so genetics are irelevant, mortals are beings made from the stuff of ephemera and magic. My point is though.. can the gods have children? There is no evidence of them having done so, because they are immortal spirits? Perhaps instead Morgoth invested some of his power into Numenor or a person within Numenor, or a line of Numenorians... In the same way that Sauron invested part of his being in to a ring. Perhaps then the 'daughter of Sauron' might not even be an actual person, but a lineage, who may know nothing about their fate, abilities or even want to aid Morgoth.. which could make for some interesting roleplaying opportunities!

I disagree. Greek mythology as an example seems to indicate that they really had blood lines, and there are several occurances of gods producing offsprings with humans, creating superhumans and beasts. That adds another question, what if Odin, Thor, Frey, Zeus, Poseidon, etc was Maiar that newer left for the Undying lands? Places like Olympos might have been a place that held a small remain of magic where they could recharge. Could work if they started to become active about 5000bc and vanished about 500bc.

In any case, I have already decided that the daughter of Sauron is a physical person (I probably should give her a name, or in the tradition of LotR, two names).
A quick basic background; At one point did Sauron seduce a Numenorian woman in a step to manipulate her for something. As soon as she had done what he needed, did he carry on and never gave her a second thought.
The child was shunned by her peers as she was a bastard. Noone knew who the father was, except her mother and she never told anyone, including her own daughter. The child was sent to live with the elves but they was always uncomfortable in her presense (they could sense the relationship to Sauron on an subconscious level). The elves was always (well, almost) polite towards her. But they avoided her and slowly pushed her away.
She left and lived among the humans where she could find acceptanse at first. But the combination of not getting older and being mistrusted by the elves was never a good recipie to keep that acceptance. She did find friends, even love, but even the strongest friendship didn't last more than half a century, as they would die of old age.
Then Morgoth found her and started to work on her, twisting her sorrows, building her disappointments into anger, feeding her anger until it became hate. Then, when her hate was strong enough, he focused that hate into a longing for revenge.

Well, how powerful is she then. My idea is that she is about an average elf in every aspect but apperance.

Next point, what power do Morgoth have during his exile. Almost none. But if he concentrate, he can sense emotions from several persons that is within 15-20 meters from eachother. Enhance or disenhance a feeling (this makes it possible to manipulate decisions, ie "the gray door gives me a creepy feeling, I take the green one as it feels much nicer"). Almost read the thoughts of one person or clearly hear hear what that person says or hear. Manipulate the dreams of one person.

[Tomcat]

A couple of things...

Earandil, father of Elros (Numenoreans) and Elrond (Elves) was a mariner and he used the one rescued Silmarillion to find Valinor so that he might plead for the aid of the Valar in the struggles against Morgoth. Because he was mortal, he was not allowed to return permanently to Middle-earth and so he and his vessel were set in the heavens, along with the Silmarillion and became one of the most sacred stars to the Elves. It was set as Earandil's duty to watch for any possible return of Morgoth from the Void.

As far as other heavenly bodies... the Sun and Moon were made from two blooms of the Trees that lit Valinor. They were set in two large carriages and two Maiar (don't remember their names) were tasked with keeping them in their path around all of Arda (Earth... which was flat at the time.

When the Numenoreans attempted to land upon the shores of Valinor, at the end of the Second Age, Eru interfered with Arda for the last time (and so ordered the Valar). He separated Valinor from the confines of Arda and "bent" the world making it round and what it is today. The "Straight Road", or what used to be the straight path (on the flat Earth) to Valinor was no longer accessible to any save the immortals or those who were graced to be allowed to take it (i.e. Bilbo Baggins).

Anyway, my last input regarding the heavens and stars... it was Manwe's wife (Elbereth) who set the stars in the sky and in their paths. The Elves and held her most dear of all the Vala, and the Numenoreans sailed the world by using the stars. So, though not much else is mentioned, they were obvioulsy very important.

Anyway, I hope this helps...

Tomcat

[Evan van Eyk]

Iam sorry I am a little late and I don't have time to read all the posts - so my info might have been already shared.

The planets do exist and there are even elvish names for them. I think Venus is a Silmaril ( might be mistaken there ), but Undomiel is her name - Evenstar, just like Arwen
There is also a name for Jupiter, something with "A", but I do not remember it, nor do I have my books with me.
They are mentioned in Silmarillion, I think Elbereth made "Jupiter" to greet the Elves, or something like that.
But there is no evidence that - in difference to the world that changed - has suffered any major change and at least these two planets exist. There is little reason to assume the others do not.

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Hm, that would require some change in plans, or at least some good way to explain around that that information

Earandil, father of Elros (Numenoreans) and Elrond (Elves) was a mariner and he used the one rescued Silmarillion to find Valinor so that he might plead for the aid of the Valar in the struggles against Morgoth. Because he was mortal, he was not allowed to return permanently to Middle-earth and so he and his vessel were set in the heavens, along with the Silmarillion and became one of the most sacred stars to the Elves. It was set as Earandil's duty to watch for any possible return of Morgoth from the Void.

This could be a metaphor or a legend, or Earandil could be up there watching. But that would work well together with such a long scheme, as it gives time to make sure that nobody would hear Earandil, when he raise the alarm.

Iam sorry I am a little late and I don't have time to read all the posts - so my info might have been already shared.

You don't?!? I am chocked... Chocked...

The planets do exist and there are even elvish names for them. I think Venus is a Silmaril ( might be mistaken there ), but Undomiel is her name - Evenstar, just like Arwen
There is also a name for Jupiter, something with "A", but I do not remember it, nor do I have my books with me.
They are mentioned in Silmarillion, I think Elbereth made "Jupiter" to greet the Elves, or something like that.
But there is no evidence that - in difference to the world that changed - has suffered any major change and at least these two planets exist. There is little reason to assume the others do not.

Hm, creating a planet to greet the Elves sounds more that she created a star that moves. So that could mean that the actual body of the planet doesn't exist yet. From that point of view is the background plot still possible without being to inconcistent. But it does tell me that there should be schoolars that dabbles in astrology. That is great info, no mather what type of adventures I will run in the LotR setting

[Sarge]

Maybe whatever blocks the path to Valinor is breaking down. Every now and then a ship or plane disappears without explanation in the Bermuda Triangle. Could be the lost portal opening briefly. And if there are other races still living in hiding on the Earth, they might occasionally be trying to find their way through that portal to the Undying Lands.

Maybe the later campaign could involve the discovery of Atlantis, which the players would eventually realize was actually Numenor. That could be the event that uncovers a powerful artifact (maybe a Palantir, "the lost seeing-stones of Numenor"), which gives Morgoth the link he needs to Arda.

There are some references in JRRT's early writings on ME to a prophesied Armageddon-like final battle involving all the forces of good and evil in a brawl to settle it all. I don't remember details and will have to do some digging to find it.

Also, the constellation Orion is called Telumehtar (I think) and is a swordsman set to guard against Morgoth. The Big Dipper or Ursa Major is called the Sickle of the Valar and was hung in the northern sky over Angband as a warning to Morgoth.

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Maybe whatever blocks the path to Valinor is breaking down. Every now and then a ship or plane disappears without explanation in the Bermuda Triangle. Could be the lost portal opening briefly.

That could work together with another idea that I had. That when the Valar closed the "door" to the Undying lands, then agents of Morgoth sealed it from the outside so they couldn't get out to early. But as the seal is made by an agent, and not even by Morgoth, it created a strain on the world, as energies that should be able to flow between the worlds was stopped. Bermuda triangle could be a place where the strain had become to much that the barrier are cracking up (randomly creating temporary portals).

Could be that when the Valar And if there are other races still living in hiding on the Earth, they might occasionally be trying to find their way through that portal to the Undying Lands.

I haven't decided on if any race would have managed to keep any knowledge from before the world was thrown back into the stone age. But I think that the dwarves should have been Morgoths first pick, as they are much more adept when it comes to technology. But something made them disappear from our known history and delaying the completion of the plan back 6-8000 years. But maybe they where not as easily corrupted as men and they found out to much. So now the dwarves are hiding from the hordes om humans, trying to figure out a way to warn anyone on the other side.

Maybe the later campaign could involve the discovery of Atlantis, which the players would eventually realize was actually Numenor. That could be the event that uncovers a powerful artifact (maybe a Palantir, "the lost seeing-stones of Numenor"), which gives Morgoth the link he needs to Arda.

I think that I will go with the idea that Iceland is right on top of Numenor. But that would work well with the discovery of a powerful artifact, as if could be powerful enough to survive the lava. The campaign could start with one of the characters find a strange object while digging on Iceland (construction or archeology site perhaps?).

There are some references in JRRT's early writings on ME to a prophesied Armageddon-like final battle involving all the forces of good and evil in a brawl to settle it all. I don't remember details and will have to do some digging to find it.

Any more information on that prophesy would be great.

Also, the constellation Orion is called Telumehtar (I think) and is a swordsman set to guard against Morgoth. The Big Dipper or Ursa Major is called the Sickle of the Valar and was hung in the northern sky over Angband as a warning to Morgoth.

Entire constellations set to guard does sound to me as a myth/legend within the world. But it is still great information as it would help to flesh out the world.

[Tobian]

The comment about the Dwarves is probably accurate. The Encyclopaedia o Arda lists how the 7 rings of the Dwarves just didn't work, or not work properly. While in a historical context we know Elves were corrupted in to Goblins etc, but largelly it seems that corruption was all on Mans shoulders - man was the tool both Morgoth and Sauron used most, as they were the easiest to turn agains themselves! (how right that is hehe).

With regards to stars.. Here's a little bit of possible history that might be of interest.. Several historians (mostly fringe here, it is not mainstream science) suppose that ther ewas a civilisation which spanned the equator, here on earth, at least 10,000 years ago, at the end of the ice age. When their civilisation broke up (mostly due to the seas rising, and lots of coastal setlements dissapearing - aka atlantis!) their remnants spread out round the world, using the stars to navigate, and kindling their knowledge within the nascent ancient civilisations we know from our ancient world. WHile most of their knowledge was lost, it has been observed that most myths and legiends are encoded with astronomical and astrological encodings.. where items/people/places and times all are written to coincide with astronomical phenomena, such as the position of stars and constelations at certain times. I ca recall one example describing an Inca Myth where the story mentioned 'a fox dipping his tail in the water' relating to an ancient battle: Using a computer simulation, he tracked the positions of constelations relative to the horizon and discovered due to changes in the position of the Earth over thousands of years, and at a particular night, that event happened in the same year as (historically) the battle took place, the Fox being a star/constelation. It is a worldly consistent phenomena, where stories encode astronomical information, though of course with constant reinvention and political correctness, we have reinvented our myths and stories too much for them to be meaningful any more, in the west!

You might need to do a bit more research on the subject than I've provided, but it shows how you could spin modern theories of ancient dissapeared sea faring civilisations, which sail round the world to escape destruction (Hello Numenorians!) and how they used myths and stories to encode important information, through oral tradition, throughout the ages, which thousands of years later, your band of players might be able to work out, to help save them from an apocalypse or something!