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Thread: All Dragons evil?

  1. #1
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    All Dragons evil?

    I'm still toying around with a chronicle idea that would involve the characters to have their share of action within the vincinity of mirkwood and the realm of Thranduil and the Kindom under the Mountain.

    Little is said in the LOTR about the time before and during the War of the Ring but you can get some places were there are hints, that the dwarves and elfes as well as the people of Dale held themselves against orcish armies and kept Sauron's forces busy.

    As I think that dragons are very fascinating creatures.
    I had the idea of having someone (probably Radagast) sending the player's into Mirkwood and the mountains beyond because nature itself and the animals of the areas in particular started to behave strangely.
    This chronilce could actually explain why Radagast wasn't around much during the War of the Ring itself. He had to resolve another task located more in the northern realms of MiddleEarth.

    A "new" power might have surfaced somewhere near Mirkwood probably near or in the Iron Mountains or the Ered Mithrin.

    Indeed I wanted to have a Dragon hiding or simply arriving there, but one that is not at all evil but a mighty, albight very old and wise creature that - in the end - would help in some way safeguarding the dwarven kingdom under the mountain as well as the Elf realm of Mirkwood against a devious plan of Sauron's. (As a follow up chronicle the dragon could reveal that he was driven away from his old lair by some mighty wizard, looking like an old man, that has come to power there, probably one of the lost two Istari?)

    I wanted to send the player's in, let them discover what kind of changes appeared and slowly learn about the possibility that there might be a Dragon.

    Somehow I want them to get charged with the task of slaying the beast, only to realize at some point, that slaying the dragon would just further the reach of Sauron's hand. In my mind I had thought about a scenario where the dragon had refused to join forces with Sauron and started slaying the Orcs probably moving against any larger Orc dwellings there are, so that the orcs were forced to push their planned move against Mirkwood and co. before time. You know, something like that.

    How would elves, men and dwarves react, when they realize that somehow a Dragon could be an ally against the Dark Lord himself and probably could be the only thing that stood between them and the destruction of their realms. Would they be able to trust the beast after centuries of mistrust and hatred for the dragon kind?

    Will the dragon survive and will the players take on the task of helping him free his homelands?

    It's just a rough idea so far. Could one build an interesting chronicle around this?
    Last edited by Cut; 05-09-2006 at 10:28 AM.

  2. #2
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    Hm... I don't know where I would put a dragon in that regard. A balrog would be filed under evil. But orchs and trolls is just brutish and agressive, and not to bright. A dragon is a very large, intelligent, predator that don't like to be domesticated. Humans have a tendency to see anything large enough to threaten their cattle as evil (i.e. wolfs).
    If you don't want to go with "dragons are evil," why not compare them with cats and put humans in the role of the mice. Normaly, a cat would cold consider a mouse as a snack, and probaly some fun as the cat terrorise it to death. But it is possible that a cat could grow fond of mice and protect them. But as a mouse, would you ever stop being afraid that you accidentaly triggered the hunting instinct. Would you even bother to try to convince anyone else that it was nice?

    Could make an interresting twist to your chronicle if a lot of people would considered the characters as either warlocks who could control a dragon, or traitors who are in liegue with the dragon. In either case, they would probably have an angry mob hunting them. Add the comic effect of a dragon why just can't resist to snatch a cow or two from time to time. The dragon knows it is a bad idea and try its best to resist, and afterwards looks really sheepish and says it is sorry (with the full guilty dog routine).
    Basicaly in this case, the story would be that the characters runs from the good guys while trying to fight the bad guys.

    An idea on how the characters and the dragon could meet the first time...
    While the characters are out to track where this new hideous beast is located, they are attacked by a superior force. That force is something that the dragon loath (maybe something that have tracked the dragon?) and as the dragon spots the battle, it dives in and rescue the day for the characters. But the dragon is wounded and can't take off.
    Now they are standing face to face with the beast they have been tracking themself. The wounds on the dragon tells them that they would have a 50-50 chanse to bring it down if they attack. If they chose to fight, neither side should win, but get more and more wounded and/or fatigued.

  3. #3
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    Dragons, like the Eagles, are more forms of powerful spirit, possibly lesser Majar, and unlike, for example, the balrog, they are not stupid, but quite inteligent.. In the same way you could team up with Sauron, Saruman or any other such 'evil' person to face off something scarier, doesn't make him your friend, it just makes him your ally!

    There's no reason you couldn't ally with a Dragon, you just couldn't trust him as far as you could throw him, and plan accordingly
    Ta Muchly

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    Per definition a dragon in Middle-Earth is evil. they are an artificial creature created by Mortogth in the first age as a mocking of the Great Eagles. They were bred to have brutal and relentless characters and they were cunning and mean.
    The Dragons were the most powerful servants Morgoth ever had and were the most dangerous threat the Elves ever had to face.

    However, no unlike Boromir, why should a Dragon not redeem himself? Mayb after millenia of contemplation about the horrors he saw and brought and the countless people he killed, maybe he came to the conclusion that this was not the right thing to do.
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan van Eyk
    However, no unlike Boromir, why should a Dragon not redeem himself? Mayb after millenia of contemplation about the horrors he saw and brought and the countless people he killed, maybe he came to the conclusion that this was not the right thing to do.
    Darth Dragon

    Yes, after I had made my original post I checked some online sources and read about the fact that Morgoth bred the first dragons. But as you said, Evan, I have a creature in mind, that somehow withstood the will of the Dark Lord (be it, because the dragon realized his wrongdoings or because he was born in freedom or whatever). In real life a loving and caring family can be struck by "a black sheep" in the family, why shouldn't the reverse thing be happening. A typical evil beast stands in for the ideas of good.

    If that's not good enough one could always go with Tobians interpreation: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Might just be... in a way... for a time.

    @ Cpt. Lundgren: I can't get the image out of my head of a friendly dragon, havin a cow in his fangs, looking sheepishly (a bit like that dragon seen in Shrek) and mumbling something like "didn't mean to..." or "it looked like it was going to attack you from behind...wasn't I supposed to stop this?"

    Thanks for your answers so far.

    On a further note...
    Has there been any account as to how Morgoth made the Dragons?
    We know that the Orcs were Elfes that were brutalised by Morgoth and degraded into Orcs. So they actually come from something good.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Lundgren
    A dragon is a very large, intelligent, predator that don't like to be domesticated.
    My intention wouldn't be to have the PCs have a big bad weapon at their disposal once they get to know the Dragon.
    I want to have the Dragon to have a free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Lundgren
    Could make an interresting twist to your chronicle if a lot of people would considered the characters as either warlocks who could control a dragon, or traitors who are in liegue with the dragon. In either case, they would probably have an angry mob hunting them.
    Yes, I had something like that envisioned. I want to create a threat to the realms (either the dwarves or the elfs) that could only be overcome if they actually allowed the Dragon to help. A mortal enemy of old.
    Would Thranduil or the king of the dwarves (don't know what Dwarve has the crown under the moutain) let their realms fall before they allowed a Dragon to safeguard them?
    All the while you could let the Dragon make small mistakes, starting by unrooting a tree, devouring cattle and so on. Only minor stuff, but anoying nevertheless. In the end I want the beast to be a 'good' being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Lundgren
    An idea on how the characters and the dragon could meet the first time...
    While the characters are out to track where this new hideous beast is located, they are attacked by a superior force. That force is something that the dragon loath (maybe something that have tracked the dragon?) and as the dragon spots the battle, it dives in and rescue the day for the characters. But the dragon is wounded and can't take off.
    Now they are standing face to face with the beast they have been tracking themself. The wounds on the dragon tells them that they would have a 50-50 chanse to bring it down if they attack. If they chose to fight, neither side should win, but get more and more wounded and/or fatigued.
    This could probably be a nice scene. The characters follow up the given leads and walk into... a trap. Set up by orcs or some other creatures. They seem to be doomed. Probably carrying already with them knowledge of an enormously dangerous ploy of Sauron's minions. And in the midst of this they get rescued by the most unlike event imaginable: A Dragon frees them, not to have them as lunch but to talk with them...

  7. #7
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    Just my two cents : the dragon could not be completely good, at least as far as humans understand it.

    For instance, he could have decided to battle evil, but at the same time that devouring cattle was just acceptable behaviour for a dragon and nothing to discuss further. Or even that some humans (like lowly peasants) are just unworthy of his attentions. This should make interesting relationships with the players ("But you just saved a whole castle and now you're eating this poor farmer's only cow??" "Well yeah I'm hungry and this is a good cow. What's your point ?").

    Another way would be to have the dragon being on his way to redemption, still hovering between good and evil, but not being quite sure of his choices. With the guidance of the players, he could be convinced to fully abandon evil, but would they believe him enough to try ?
    "The main difference between Trekkies and Manchester United fans is that Trekkies never trashed a train carriage. So why are the Trekkies the social outcasts?"
    Terry Pratchett

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cut
    On a further note...
    Has there been any account as to how Morgoth made the Dragons?
    We know that the Orcs were Elfes that were brutalised by Morgoth and degraded into Orcs. So they actually come from something good.
    As far as In know, Dragons are corrupted Great Eagles. Morgoth was unable to actually create life - he could only twist and corrupt it. Just like the trolls are corrupted Ents, and Orcs are actually Elves, etc.
    The Dragon - Eagle connection is from the old MERP-Book however, I am not sure how official it is. But there should be something in the Silmarillion. On the other hand what other flying creature would be large enough for that?
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

  9. #9
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    I have also read that the dragons are created from the great eagles. But it might be in MERP as well, as I can't remember where.

    Some thoughts on some of the actions a dragon might do
    Eating domesticated animals instead of wild - Different taste due to type of food, amount of food and how much the animal move around.
    Hoarding - I have a hard time imaging a dragon to walk into a store or a pub to buy something. Might be that they just like shiny things. Or it is the clasic armour, coins get stuck on the dragon and helps protecting the belly as the armour is much softer there. Last thought, it just be a good way to make a bed (makes the ground flat, a little bit softer, and doesn't catch fire as easily as trees and bushes).
    Frightening humans - makes them to stay away from the lair. Also a good way to get snack delivered (sacrifices)
    Unrooting trees - They do? Hm... making a bed when away from home. Chewing on trees as a method to brush the teeth. Eating the help improve digestion. Just chewing on just to have something to chew on (as a human might be chewing on a toothpick or a pencil). Just playing/doing it (compare with a human who just picks up a staw or picking a leaf).
    Starting a forest fire - "Hey, I burped! Is it my fault it hasn't been raining for a month?"
    Selfish - They are not a flock/tribe creature and usually prefere to stay alone. Not the situation that foster the ability to cooperate. Dragons probably doesn't have much need for empathy, so most of them have a rather sociopathic personality (Cut, might be that your dragon suffers from a psychical disorder that makes it to care about others? )
    Kidnapping princesses (just had to add it ) - pointless, unless the dragon is into kidnapping/ransom. But a convenient scape-goat if someone wants to kidnap the girl. Could be a revenge thing thou... killing something that an enemy holds precious.

  10. #10
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    I pulled this off the Encyclopedia of Arda:

    Mighty reptilian creatures who ranked among the most feared of the servants of the Dark Lord. Of the origins of dragons, no tale tells; the first of them to be seen was Glaurung, Father of Dragons, who first issued from Angband in the middle of the First Age. After Glaurung came many others to strike fear into Elves and Men for the next three ages; among them were Ancalagon the first winged dragon, Scatha who dwelt in the cold northern wastes, and Smaug, last of the great dragons.

    Dragons have powers of intelligence and speech, and many are also able to cast the dragon-spell, a bewildering confusion that affects any who gaze into the eye of the creature.

    The dragons were not destroyed at the end of the Third Age; some are said to have survived to our own time, but the great worms and drakes of the Elder Days are no more.
    I think it unlikely that a dragon could be redeemed, though I imagine one could help the good guys in the short-term, for its own eventual gain.

    Ultimately, it's your game though, so do whatcha want.

  11. #11
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    Yeah I more or less read that the other night, when i was researching too Ineti

    I think the fundamental question here is not - are Dragons evil or good, or are Dragons capable of being redeemed, but what do they want with the players that they Don't kill them!

    In the Mythic age, good and evil is pretty much defined by sides.. Those who side with the gods, and those who side with Morgoth/Melkor (what is it with 10 names for anything ! ) The concept of redemption really seems to be a quality of only lesser, but inteligent beings.. Orks can't really redeem, they are inbred evil, and more or less created for their purpose directly. Elves, Men, Dwarves and even the istari, can and have chosen which side they want to pick.

    In that sense Dragons could choose to change, but then, if they are akin to Eagles that have fallen, then they may be inbred evil, and have no 'choice' in the matter. Saruman, Sauron, Gandalf all had a choice on the matter, a Balrog doesn't: They are on the same rank, power level and inteligence as an istari, but they don't have the ability to chose what to be, so it seems if a spirit is given a man-like rainment it has the man-like ability to chose sides!

    Dragons are a slight anomaly.. They have good inteligence, but is that the same as men and elves? or is it animalistic cunning and wiles?

    It has also to be said that good doesn't equal saintly kindly or nice, Elves are not Care bears! And evil doesn't equal motiveless moustash twirling vilans who are ignorant and stupid. Gandalf and Saruman were cut from the same cloth, one took one path, the other went the other. Saruman was basically self serving, and sought power. Self serving is one of the best descriptions of 'evil' - but self-serving individuals can still work with others if it benefits them.

    If the Dragon is so powerful, how did the Blue Wizard cause it to flee? What power does it wield over the dragon that it fled it's lands? I am reminded of Gandalf's staff, which in the extended edition we see the Witch king shatter, because it had a power to push away the fell beasts which chased the fleeing Gondorian army from Osgiliath. Perhaps the Dragon has no power over it, but if he could dupe a bunch of men to destroy it for him...?
    Ta Muchly

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobian
    If the Dragon is so powerful, how did the Blue Wizard cause it to flee? What power does it wield over the dragon that it fled it's lands? I am reminded of Gandalf's staff, which in the extended edition we see the Witch king shatter, because it had a power to push away the fell beasts which chased the fleeing Gondorian army from Osgiliath. Perhaps the Dragon has no power over it, but if he could dupe a bunch of men to destroy it for him...?
    Now, that's a valid question with a directly supplied nice answer. Thank you, Tobian

  13. #13
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    I am guessing that I will have somewhere in between 4-6 players at best.

    And it is most likely that only one or two have actually will have read the books. I'd say they have all seen the Jackson movies.
    So they won't know if Dragons are all bad by the rule. I can impose that. But I want the NPCs of the Elves and Dwarves to correct according.

    The very surprising part of the chronicle is based upon the wrong assumption that every dragon has to be all bad.

    Another problem would be what could be a problem or catastrophe that could befall let's say Thranduil's realm that he could not solve alone and would probably need the help of an arch-enemy.

    As it is, I do have my personal problems with seeing the Dragons as missused descendants of the Great Eagles.
    No matter if it's MERP stuff or comes from Tolkien himself.
    What do the two have in common? They are big and the can fly. Period. They don't even look that similar, although that's quite difficult to say as we have never 'seen' one of Tolkien's Dragons on-screen.
    (Where/when is that 'Hobbit-movie" anyway, Mr. Jackson? )

    Another idea could be, that one of the two blue wizards managed to get a hold of a Dragon egg and tried to build his power with this beast.
    In doing so, the Dragon did a lot of evil stuff but at some point the beast seemed to develope that conscience that the magician seemed to be missing and fled or even better opposed him.
    It came to a fight, the Dragon was put off and had to leave but felt the need to return and 'free' his homelands from the doom of terror it once helped to install one day in the near future.
    (@Cpt. Lundgren:and maybe rob the princess he truly deserves as the happy end *g*)

    Where could this 'other' land be situated? Is there any mention of where the two wizards disappeared?

    It's a lot of brainstorming and guess work here, but I greatly appriciate your thoughts and help +

    Ah, and I came up with a working title including a play of words: "The Ta(i)le of the Dragon"

    PS:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Lundgren
    A rather sociopathic personality (Cut, might be that your dragon suffers from a psychical disorder that makes it to care about others? )
    The chronicle will not be called "Tale of the psycho Dragon" he is mentaly quite all right
    Think about what would happen if say Tom Bobadil or Radagast cure him in the middle of Mirkwood or Moria. He'd make himself right at home *grin*
    Last edited by Cut; 05-10-2006 at 12:42 PM.

  14. #14
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    Actually the flip of that could be quite clever.. especially if the Dragon lies a lot!

    If the Blue Wizard set about as his personal quest to redeem a Dragon, against Sauron's power in middle earth, takes the egg, and raises it as his own.. However the Dragon, pretends to be good, and goes off doing quests, and fools the istari into believing he is doing good. More than that he twists the istari - and corrupts him. This may have taken several 'lives of men' - thousands of years, but the Blue Wizard believes he is doing good, but in fact is doing evil. However the rub is.. the Dragon was more successful than he realised. He thought he was using the Dragon-spell on the Wizard, but the Spell can only be used to turn good men to evil - the Istari was now quite 'evil' and the Dragon could not controll him any more!

    Suddenly realising he was vulnerable, because now the Wizard knew all of his weaknesses and flaws, and as Saruman, was now the greatest in Draconic lore, he fled (Tolkein uses the mythic sense of a Lore, where knowing about something gives you an almost magical controll of the subject!)... Meeting the compatriots he spins the story that the reverse is the case, in a bid to try and destroy the Blue Wizard.. This leads to several outcomes.. The Dragon, by understanding the consiquences of his actions now feels guilty.. If by being in the presence of the heroic characters, can he be redeemed: By being introduced to the consiquence of his actions he gains empathy, which is self knowledge. Also the Blue Wizard might not truly understand he is 'evil' either, ad come to realise it through the intervention or actions of the characters.. This could make some very hard decisions for the characters... which side to chose !

    The concept that Orks are a corruption of Elves and Dragons being a corruption of Eagles makes sense.. Remember that Eagles are NOT 'large birds' - they are semi-divine spirits, allong the same lines as the Istari.. They helped Gandalf because they alligned with him ideologically, not just because he summoned them using magic: They are inteligent and compassionate, and their 'flesh' is no more 'real' than Gandalf's appearance as an old man truly represents what he is, he is neither man, nor does his flesh represent his 'age' (though he is old! ) - Notice that the semi-magical races change their appearance when corrupted.. Much like an Elf can choose to 'show the inner light' or chose if he is to be an elf or man, their outward appearance expresses their inward soul. Man or Hobbits or even Numenorians don't change - they are just good or bad.. So while yes an Eagle or Dragon have no true shared compatibilities, they do share enough comonalities it makes sense they are a corruption... That and it has been said Morgoth couldn't truly create 'life' but just corrupt other forms.. So the raw material had to come from the spirits of Ainur.. The Dragons may never have physically manifested as actual eagles, they may have changed their aleigences long before there was a manifest 'world' and simply manifested as a Dragon, and come from the same race of spirit as the Eagle. Morgoth began his war agains the Valar long before there was a world as we know in the first age onwards!
    Ta Muchly

  15. #15
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    Has anyone of you an idea what I could use as the big threat against the Elves and Dwarves?

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