The status of the Northern Kingdom, late 3rd - early 4th age

[Tomcat]

Tomcat in the northern reconquista campaign with the unmaking of the one great ring ... would the wrights and undead in habiting the Barrow-Downs would they diminish or would they remain the same. I am curious for your thoughts?

Also how many dunedain of the north do you think remain follwing the war of the ring? Do you think Elessar and Eldarion would grant them the former titles that they held in the days of the Old Kingdom?

I would keep them the same. First, because having haunted, mist covered downs makes for a good tale no matter what world/genre you play in!

Even though the power of Sauron is broken with the One Ring's destruction, the malice of him and his master Morgoth would still be pervasive in Middle-earth. Morgoth was part of the shaping of Arda so there will always be a part of him in everything that is made and I think Tolkien hints at this - whether it be a corrupted spirit of a faded Avari Elf, a Orc that is no longer serving any master but the strongest in a tribe, or just the dark plans in the hearts of Men... these things would still be present.

As far as how many Dunedain are left... I think there were thirty that rode south to meet Aragorn before the battle of Minas Tirith, this included Elrond's sons. There was never any word as far as how many stayed behind to continue protecting the lands nor any number of how many survived the Pelennor Fields. This being said, I would go with the idea that there are less than 50 full-blooded Dunedain left in the north including both men and women, but some may contradict me and have better evidence.

I think Elessar would gladly restore the titles of those who remained true to the culture of the Dunedain for so many centuries, and would probably be very reliant on them in re-settling the north.

Tomcat

[Feanorgil]

I would keep them the same. First, because having haunted, mist covered downs makes for a good tale no matter what world/genre you play in!

Even though the power of Sauron is broken with the One Ring's destruction, the malice of him and his master Morgoth would still be pervasive in Middle-earth. Morgoth was part of the shaping of Arda so there will always be a part of him in everything that is made and I think Tolkien hints at this - whether it be a corrupted spirit of a faded Avari Elf, a Orc that is no longer serving any master but the strongest in a tribe, or just the dark plans in the hearts of Men... these things would still be present.

As far as how many Dunedain are left... I think there were thirty that rode south to meet Aragorn before the battle of Minas Tirith, this included Elrond's sons. There was never any word as far as how many stayed behind to continue protecting the lands nor any number of how many survived the Pelennor Fields. This being said, I would go with the idea that there are less than 50 full-blooded Dunedain left in the north including both men and women, but some may contradict me and have better evidence.

I think Elessar would gladly restore the titles of those who remained true to the culture of the Dunedain for so many centuries, and would probably be very reliant on them in re-settling the north.

Tomcat

50 wow they did dwindle I was thinking that there would have been more since they barred the way at sarn ford ( granted casualties taken from the nazgul) I was thinking maybe 50 families left.... do you think that could be reasonable?

[Tomcat]

Yea, you could go with 50 families or 100 for that matter.

I am just making my interpretation from what Tolkien describes in the book as far as the old lands of Arnor (save the Shire) being mostly desolate. There is a smattering of settlements of Middle-men (i.e. Bree) and hidden settlements of Dunedain within the Angle.

But when the call to war went out via Galadriel and her answering the wishes of the hearts she read when the Company entered Lothlorien, and thus sent word that Aragorn was calling his kinsmen, only about 30 came. Again, you will want to read the book to get the true number, but that should give you an idea of the number of folk, taking into mind that some would stay behind to still defend their land.

Now if you want to get technical, it could be stated that there were enough pure blood Dunedain that people weren't marrying first cousins or siblings along the way and that the Line of Kings would remain strong and healthy - not become some genetically twisted freaks over three millenia of the Third Age!

Aragorn isn't described as having a third eye or lobster claw-shaped hands, so I think this is a safe assumption too!

Bottom line is it is your story and you can do as you please... I just wouldn't suggest having a thriving metropolis of Dunedain in old Arnor.

Tomcat

[Feanorgil]

I agree... no lobster claws... considering that when the call to aid aragorn went out and only 30 showed up. I assume there was a stay behnd group to aid in the defence of the north as well as protecting what remained of the line of Arnor.

[Sarge]

IIRC, the 30 Dunedain who rode south were "all that could be gathered and sent in haste" or words to that effect. So I'd assume that there are more, but they are widely scattered and isolated with slow communications.

[Feanorgil]

I agree with sarge.

Does anyone agree with Colonization of Arnor by the Northman under Elessar and Eldarion's guidence and of course gold. I was thinking along the lines of obligatory militray service in return for landholdings.

Vaughan

[Cpt. Lundgren]

I envision a quite slow reintegration of Arnor. First of all, Gondor have been severely weakened by the wars. So while they might claim lordship over Arnor, it will take some time before they are in a position to actually do so.

The Thain of the Shire is friendly against both the King and Steward of Gondor, so negotiation should be very smooth (they remain fairly autonomous).

The area around Bree have been under the protection of the Ranger (and not to forget, influenced) and being on something that once again can be an important crossroad will be a strong position for negotiations.

But for example the Dunlendings will most likely not be as fond of someone claiming their land. The once most strongly against it was also most likely the tribes that joined Sarumans forces, and has been quite weakened. Here is somewhere where I envision intrigue, backstabbing politics and open warfare.

About promising land to the soldiers. i find it very likely. Especially as there are unpopulated areas close to the mountains. Who is best to let recolonize a dangerous land like that, but former soldiers that can defend their homes.

When we talk about the number of Dunedain, I am quite sure that the 30 was the number that could be gathered and spared on such short notice. After all, you can't drop all of the local defenses either. Another point is that the 30 may be the ones available that had access to horses. The other 200 that could be sent maybe still only had got halfway there during the important battles.

[Feanorgil]

Whew I am back and still slowly working on the 4th Age concept of course favor the north (lots of room to create and develop). Furthering the discussion at hand. -

1. The recolonization and reconstruction effort would be for a time centered from the bree area. beleive it will take some time to masters the Northern downs and wrest them from the control of the malice the witch-king had left. Also I find the reconstruction of fornost delyed until the area is secured. I envision a combined campaign by the Gondorians, dunedain and the elves to push most of the fell beasties out. The Gondorians I believe following the ancient roman tradition would build a fortified base and begin to patrol the area while developing the infrastructure. I clearly imagine the dwaves hired out as construction companies to begin clearing and rebuilding. Lots of sunk costs for the gondorian tax base to support.

2. I what happens to Lindon following the departure of the bulk of the noldorian exiles at the end of the third age? think it remains in the hands of the elves. Small communities of mixed descent (Noldo-Sinda-Nandorian) would remain. The Regency of Lindon would probbably be entrusted to Elorhir and Elladan.

3. t is my opinion that the population of rivendell would swell with the influx of Belerandic eleves of lorien when celeborn arrives. Those that remained in east Lorian would be assimilated by thranduil's sylvan kingdom.

4. Aglarond becomes the new bastion of dwarves in the south ....

5. Rohan expandes and for a while is in incesant conflict with the dunland clans to the west.

6. I see the rhovanion kingdom rememerge with with a dundain bride and the consent ( albiet supported ) of both rohan and the reunited kingdom.


that is just the beginningof what envsion. The eveil that lurks is subtle and doesn't forget the past .. Easterings..... dark druids of the dunland clans, Black Numenrorian, Mt Gram and Mt. Gundabad

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Ah, Rhovanion. Forgot about them. If there is no clear heir to the throne, and with the easterlings next door, there should be some to opportunity for conflicts .

I agree that the rebuilding/reconquering of Arnor will initially be centered from Bree. But symbolism seems to be very important, at least in the old Dunedain lands, so I think that Fornost will be quite high on the priority list. At least to secure the area and placing a small settlement there.

I have mainly envisioned that they first will secure the old road that pass through Tharbard. But when looking closer at the maps (finally got my copy of The Atlas of Middle-Earth ) I figure that the main road up there would be up to the Beornings, and then to Bree.