The status of the Northern Kingdom, late 3rd - early 4th age

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Another set of questions I am trying to find information on or, in lack of information, make up my own aswers. Any input is welcome

Aragorn is supposed to reclaim Arnor under his crown during the 4th age. But what is the status of the northern kingdom?

Of the old cities, only Bree seems to remain in any form other than ruins. I don't remember the description from the book, and I don't have it here, but I think the book also had a closed gate at night. This seems to indicate that Bree has at least a palisade around it as a defense. So that the hobbits considers these areas as much more dangerous than the Shire could be more than prejudices. The Shire on the other hand seems to have open villages anyone could walk into. Their care-free nature indicates to me that the Brandywine river is not something you can get across without a boat.

But what of the rest of the northern kingdom?
Southeast of Cardolan, directly to the west/northwest of Rohan, do we have Dunland, which seems to be a tribal or clan society.
Tharbard is in ruins and is just a place where you can cross the river.
According to the Encyclopedia of Arda did Halbarad Dunadan only had 30 Rangers with him to fight for Aragorn in the War of the Ring. This makes me believe that one of these three options have occurred
a. The Rangers are almost extinct
b. The Rangers was to geographically divided to gather a larger force in time
c. The Rangers was to politically divided, so they didn't care to come to the aid of their chieftains.

There is a large are between Bree and Dunland. Is this an empty space, or does people live here? I assume that any settlement between Loudwater and Misty Mountains (The triangle that would be if you place Rivendell and Tharbard at the edges) would have a lot of problems from raiding orcs. But the old kingdom of Cardolan is probably inhabitable but without any central government. Maybe it is more equal to the frontier of the old wild west?

Are there any more factions?

I'm not sure that that the revival of the Northern Kingdom receives a positive welcome everywhere. At some locations does Aragon might he meet resistance, but the show of force is enough (just showing up with his guards), at other location might he even have to use force. From Gondors view, they are just bringing back law, order and civilisation to the land. But from the locals, they might very well consider Gondor to be an occupation force. This could create unrest for a couple of decades until everything settles down.

[spshu]

Of Thegns and Kings and Rangers and Things that deals with how many Rangers there are and the status of the Chieftain/Lord of the Dunedain. It also indicates where according to Tolkien's paper they lived. I think that the article goes on to imply that the Rangers is an attempt to maintain some minimum amount of authority and claim over the area.

I could see that each of the three Arnorian kingdoms having its own group of rangers. I think the Ranger were "b. The Rangers was to geographically divided to gather a larger force in time"; also that they had other matter to attend to with Dunlendings attacking. Perhaps one of the Ring Wraith leading some attacks out of Angmar, Moria or Dol Guldur, kept them busy. What were the other Naguls doing any ways? The Witch King was leading the Mordors's army at Pelennor Fields but the others? Or some of them attempt and fail to stop Saruman's take over of the Shire but perhaps stoping them from taking over Bree.

There are a number of additional articles at Suite101.com, including info on the New Shadow story that Tolkien worked on and abandoned. Promissing articles: The Middle-Earth Prophecies, Good Night, Good Rhudaur.

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Some very good links

I could see that each of the three Arnorian kingdoms having its own group of rangers. I think the Ranger were "b. The Rangers was to geographically divided to gather a larger force in time"; also that they had other matter to attend to with Dunlendings attacking.

That would put some strains in their ranks. Which could lead to some good story-telling As Aragorns blood line is from Arthedain, this group of Dunedain seems to have moved to an area prevously controlled one of the other kingdoms. Most of the Dunadains have probably banded together since the fall of their kingdoms. But Aragorn seems to shy away from taking on leadership in general from the beginning. So most of the Rangers might even not really se him as the leader, but most of them do as he asks, most of the time, mainly because he is a good ranger. Basically, that Aragorn doesn't really commands the Rangers, but asks them and presents a good argument why it is a good idea to do it. But there probably is a group of royalists that always are talking about that he is Isildurs heir and their leader by birth-right. This group is the ones Aragorn then would refer to when he claims to be the Capain of the Rangers. It would also explain why not more Rangers came to Gondor as they could not simply be ordered there, but they would have to ask them and convince them that they would do more use somewhere else.

The articles also placed Aragorns home to "The Angle." They might do a good job of keeping the Orcs away from Cardolan. But considering Barlimans comment about "Strider," the Rangers is not trusted at all in Bree. The humans living in the area have long forgotten the kingdoms of old.

Considering that the Thain of the Shire from year 13, 3rd age, knew the king of Gondor personally, I don't think it would be to hard to incorporate the Shire as a self-ruling part of the new Arnor (considering that most of the shire was under Sarumans control and had to be liberated, most of the hobbits probably welcommed the ties with Gondor).

But the other parts of the old kingdoms... most of the inhabitants probably traces their blood-lines to the hillsmen or the dunlendings. The most common reaction would probably be "Oh, so now when the worst perils are over, you want to come here and rule us?!?" Aragorn probably can convince the local leaders to accept, but it probably will be a lot of dissident groups for a couple of decades.

[Tomcat]

That would put some strains in their ranks. Which could lead to some good story-telling As Aragorns blood line is from Arthedain, this group of Dunedain seems to have moved to an area prevously controlled one of the other kingdoms. Most of the Dunadains have probably banded together since the fall of their kingdoms. But Aragorn seems to shy away from taking on leadership in general from the beginning. So most of the Rangers might even not really se him as the leader, but most of them do as he asks, most of the time, mainly because he is a good ranger. Basically, that Aragorn doesn't really commands the Rangers, but asks them and presents a good argument why it is a good idea to do it. But there probably is a group of royalists that always are talking about that he is Isildurs heir and their leader by birth-right. This group is the ones Aragorn then would refer to when he claims to be the Capain of the Rangers. It would also explain why not more Rangers came to Gondor as they could not simply be ordered there, but they would have to ask them and convince them that they would do more use somewhere else.

This is not the case at all... Aragorn was the Cheiftain of the Dunedain of the North, as his father was before him, but he hid his lineage from others so the Enemy would not know him. Perhaps the 30 knights he led south to Gondor were the only true-blooded Dunedain left in the north; or perhaps as others have said, the bulk of the Rangers were busy with quelling problems inthe North.

The articles also placed Aragorns home to "The Angle." They might do a good job of keeping the Orcs away from Cardolan. But considering Barlimans comment about "Strider," the Rangers is not trusted at all in Bree. The humans living in the area have long forgotten the kingdoms of old.

I believe that in the Lord of the Rings, it is mentioned by Hobbits and Men alike that things will be better someday when the king returns - I do not have my books in front of me to point to an actual reference - but in so saying, I think that the peoples of the North still tell tales of how it used to be.

Considering that the Thain of the Shire from year 13, 3rd age, knew the king of Gondor personally, I don't think it would be to hard to incorporate the Shire as a self-ruling part of the new Arnor (considering that most of the shire was under Sarumans control and had to be liberated, most of the hobbits probably welcommed the ties with Gondor).

The folk of the Shire were given that land and the righ to govern themselves, by the King of Arthedain before its fall. It is presumed that this was done because there were so few Men left to keep up roads, bridges, and even watch of the lands around. In any case, Aragorn once crowned re-affirmed that the Shire was its own to rule.

But the other parts of the old kingdoms... most of the inhabitants probably traces their blood-lines to the hillsmen or the dunlendings. The most common reaction would probably be "Oh, so now when the worst perils are over, you want to come here and rule us?!?" Aragorn probably can convince the local leaders to accept, but it probably will be a lot of dissident groups for a couple of decades.

The folk of the North could also trace their blood-lines to the Eriadorians that dominated the area when the Kings of Numenor were still sailing the oceans. When Elendil landed, he settled in the north and took up rulership of his own but also the Eriadorian folk that lived there.

These were the people that dug the first barrows (who the Dunedain of Cardolan emulated) and ruled "tiny little kingdoms" as Tom Bombadil spoke of. They may be able to trace their line to those tribes of Men that crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand in the First Age.

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Anyway... I don't know if any of this helped or not, but there it is.

[Cpt. Lundgren]

This is not the case at all... Aragorn was the Cheiftain of the Dunedain of the North, as his father was before him, but he hid his lineage from others so the Enemy would not know him. Perhaps the 30 knights he led south to Gondor were the only true-blooded Dunedain left in the north; or perhaps as others have said, the bulk of the Rangers were busy with quelling problems inthe North.

I agree on that the Dunedain that draws their lineage from Arthedain wouldn't hesitate to accept Aragorn as their leader. I think that most of the Dunedains in the north have banded together since the fall of the three kingdoms and created one society again. But it is over 2000 years since the fall of Arnor, so not all of the Dunedain might consider the heritage enough. If we look at the man, Aragorn seems to be a loner even among the Dunadain. A ranger only because he sees the necessity, but avoiding his destiny. If it was an option, he seems to rather live out his life in a quiet corner of the world, with Arwen at his side, than to lead anyone. A born leader both by heritage and skill, but lacking the will.

I believe that in the Lord of the Rings, it is mentioned by Hobbits and Men alike that things will be better someday when the king returns - I do not have my books in front of me to point to an actual reference - but in so saying, I think that the peoples of the North still tell tales of how it used to be.

You mean how it used to be while three nations waged war on eachother? J/K The hobbits seems to mainly have the opinion that you should stay away from the business of the tall ones. If I remember right, the hobbits have only been on this side of Misty mountains since 1300, 3rd age (almost 500 years after Arnor was divided).

I guess there are quite a lot of people in Bree that wouldn't mind the return of a kingdom, where they are not right at the border. Being located on a crossroad would be very advantageous from a trade point of view. But the people living in what once was southern Cardolan, and the Dunlendings, might have a more differentiated opinion. Any references or indications of this would be helpful

The folk of the Shire were given that land and the righ to govern themselves, by the King of Arthedain before its fall. It is presumed that this was done because there were so few Men left to keep up roads, bridges, and even watch of the lands around. In any case, Aragorn once crowned re-affirmed that the Shire was its own to rule.

The information of this seems a little vague. Was it a complete release, or was it just until the kingdom was restored? In any case, this was 30-40 generations ago so I assume that not many hobbits have put any real effort into taking a real position on the subject

The folk of the North could also trace their blood-lines to the Eriadorians that dominated the area when the Kings of Numenor were still sailing the oceans. When Elendil landed, he settled in the north and took up rulership of his own but also the Eriadorian folk that lived there.

These were the people that dug the first barrows (who the Dunedain of Cardolan emulated) and ruled "tiny little kingdoms" as Tom Bombadil spoke of. They may be able to trace their line to those tribes of Men that crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand in the First Age.

Isn't that just more distant relatives to the Hillsmen and Dunlendings? Will check them out.

Anyway... I don't know if any of this helped or not, but there it is.

It is helpful It helps me to decide how I want to fill in the blanks and if I want to contradict canon somewhere. If I contradict something, I prefer to do it on purpose.

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Just some random thoughts on a village in the southern part of the old kingdom. Probably part of a clan society. I made a quick drawing of how a village there might look like.

Data of the village
Inhabitants: 100-150
Possible defenders (men and women): 50-75
Horses: 5-10

The 2 buildings closest to the gate are used as stables and barns as all animals are kept inside the gates at night and during (more) dangerous times. The big building to the left is the granary.

A clan could be based on 5-20 of these villages.

[Tomcat]

I agree on that the Dunedain that draws their lineage from Arthedain wouldn't hesitate to accept Aragorn as their leader. I think that most of the Dunedains in the north have banded together since the fall of the three kingdoms and created one society again. But it is over 2000 years since the fall of Arnor, so not all of the Dunedain might consider the heritage enough.

You are exactly right... it has been two thousand years since the fall of Arnor, even longer since the death of Elendil and Isildur, but the Duneadin still maintain an allegiance to the bloodline. Even the long-lived kings of Numenor maintained a direct blood line to Elros and that age lasted 3,000 years. So, I don't think that a society so steeped in tradition that lasts millenia are just going to up and quit on their allegiances. When Aragorn rode into Gondor, Faramir asked the people if they would accept him as king and they said yes - and that was Gondor, which had a blood-line monarchy of its own well past the demise of Arnor.

If we look at the man, Aragorn seems to be a loner even among the Dunadain. A ranger only because he sees the necessity, but avoiding his destiny. If it was an option, he seems to rather live out his life in a quiet corner of the world, with Arwen at his side, than to lead anyone. A born leader both by heritage and skill, but lacking the will.

Aragorn was hidden in Rivendell after his birth so agents of the Enemy would not know him or find him at a young age - his father Arathorn had been slain by an arrow to the eye. I think at age twenty (maybe thirty), Elrond told Aragorn of his heritage and who and what he was.

After that, he spent the rest of his days (up until the fall of Sauron) working to oppose and bring down the Enemy. He fought by Theoden; he planned and participated in the attack on the Corsairs which denied them the bulk of their fleet by the War of the Ring. And we all know what he did to bring down Sauron.

He also divulged his love and desire to marry Arwen to Elrond. The Elf-lord told Aragorn that only a king could marry his daughter... so guess what Aragorn did?

So, I don't think that he shirked his duties to his people, was a loner, or anything else. He was a kingly man with a proud heritage and a great future. I think PJ's appaling interpretation of Aragorn being the unwanted hero is where everyone gets the idea that he didn't want his fate.

[Cpt. Lundgren]

You are exactly right... it has been two thousand years since the fall of Arnor, even longer since the death of Elendil and Isildur, but the Duneadin still maintain an allegiance to the bloodline. Even the long-lived kings of Numenor maintained a direct blood line to Elros and that age lasted 3,000 years. So, I don't think that a society so steeped in tradition that lasts millenia are just going to up and quit on their allegiances. When Aragorn rode into Gondor, Faramir asked the people if they would accept him as king and they said yes - and that was Gondor, which had a blood-line monarchy of its own well past the demise of Arnor.

Remember that the breakup of Arnor into 3 kingdoms, the Corsairs and the black Numenorians are all examples of Denedain turning on eachother. So while they have very strong traditions, there is something selfdestructive within those traditions.

So, I don't think that he shirked his duties to his people, was a loner, or anything else. He was a kingly man with a proud heritage and a great future. I think PJ's appaling interpretation of Aragorn being the unwanted hero is where everyone gets the idea that he didn't want his fate.

I never said that he ever shirked from his duties, I said he avoided his destiny. The destiny to become king. Even from the books, I get the impression that Aragorn see himself as a servant and defender of the people. That he finally takes the crown is because that is the best way he could serve the people. Also, remember that as Aragorn is brought up in Rivendell, he has most likely learned the traditions of the Dunedain from the outside. That is a good way to distill out some of the negative aspects.

He also divulged his love and desire to marry Arwen to Elrond. The Elf-lord told Aragorn that only a king could marry his daughter... so guess what Aragorn did?.

That could have been Elronds real intention, but it could also be his way to give Aragorn an extra nudge in the right direcrion.

[Tomcat]

Remember that the breakup of Arnor into 3 kingdoms, the Corsairs and the black Numenorians are all examples of Denedain turning on eachother. So while they have very strong traditions, there is something selfdestructive within those traditions.

I never said the Dunedain, or the Numenoreans, were infallable, but still your references don't work for me.

The break up of Arnor was over dissensions between the sons of Earendur - all of which were of the bloodline of Isildur - but only in Arthedain was the line maintained and endured and finally became the Cheiftains of the Dunedain of the North. So, even though the country broke into three and then each of these fell into ruin, still there is no evidence that the Dunedain of the North swayed in their allegiance to the Line of Isildur.

It can be argued that after the fall of the princes of Rhudaur and Cardolan, the King in Arthedain had no way to exert any influence over these countries and its peoples but I accredit this to the dwindling of the Dunedain in these lands.

As far as your other reference, the Black Numenoreans, these folk originally rebelled against the Kings of Numenor and were not part of the 'Faithful' whom Elendil led back to Middle-earth. I believe their rebelliousness partly extends from the corrupting influence of Sauron just to their north.

I said he avoided his destiny.

Overall, I guess then that we will have to agree to disagree. Everything I read about Aragorn, in my numerous reading of Tolkien's many works, gave me the impression that he did everything to prepare for his destiny.

Good luck in your story.

[JALU3]

And what of the lands of the south, I have never role played in Middle Earth . . . but the lands to the south, if I remember had a couple ports that were part of Gondor . . . way back in the second and third age, right? What happened to these? Or are they not rich in roleplaying potential?

[Cpt. Lundgren]

Overall, I guess then that we will have to agree to disagree.

I think that the disagreement is what have helped me the most to structure up how I want to use the remains of Arnor. Thank you for your input.

And what of the lands of the south, I have never role played in Middle Earth . . . but the lands to the south, if I remember had a couple ports that were part of Gondor . . . way back in the second and third age, right? What happened to these? Or are they not rich in roleplaying potential?

The harbour of Umbar, the port of call for the Corsairs, is an old settlement of Numenor. I think that I have heard about another one, but I can't recall anything about it at them moment. We also have Harad that was an enemy of Gondor (Harads is also the name of a small town in northern sweden. I probably have some relatives there ). The Mumakil units where from Harad. But to my knowledge, not much was written about them. Much more creative freedom for the narrator

But it is mentioned in the book, when the ring where destroyed, that some of the easterlings and southerlings made a last desperate attack, some fleed and some gave up and begged for mercy. Seems to me that while some of them was driven by hatred, most of them was driven by a spearpoint at their own back.

Anyway, except perhaps stories that involves Umbar, I would probably draw most of my inspiration for adventures in Harad from 1001 nights.

[Tomcat]

I think that the disagreement is what have helped me the most to structure up how I want to use the remains of Arnor. Thank you for your input.

Then I am glad I could help...

[Feanorgil]

awesome discussion guys.... I have a question the re-settlement of the north.... usuing elessar and eldarion reigns do you think the population explosion that would have occured following the war of the ring would spill northward? Do you think elssear and eldarion would colonize the north with gondorians... and usuing byzantium as a parallel settle Rohirrim in areas as well?

[Tomcat]

I think the appendices at the end of the RotK tells about Aragorn leading a campaign to re-establish the North - but don't hold me to that.

In any case, it would be a fun series of adventures to run!

Tomcat

[Feanorgil]

Tomcat in the northern reconquista campaign with the unmaking of the one great ring ... would the wrights and undead in habiting the Barrow-Downs would they diminish or would they remain the same. I am curious for your thoughts?

Also how many dunedain of the north do you think remain follwing the war of the ring? Do you think Elessar and Eldarion would grant them the former titles that they held in the days of the Old Kingdom?