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Thread: CODA - Federation Starships 2260s

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFVanguard
    And, of course, that begs the question of 'if the Connies are hopelessly outdated, why are Mirandas, Sivas, and even OTHER CONNIES serving front line duties a century later?'
    Maybe with the change in the political climate (end of the cold war with the Klingons, disappearance of the Romulans) Starfleet decided to cut back on military programs. In that light some of the oler designs might be worth keeping around or bring back. Sort of like what the US did with the IOWA class Battleships. They were obsolete since WWII, and decomissioned. Then 40 years later they get put back into service. While the Iowa class was even more outdated in the 80s that it was in the 40s, it still could fire a shell over 25 miles. The Connies can still do all the things they were designed to do-they just aren't the "best ships in the fleet" anymore.

    Performace wise, they do match up well against some of the smaller craft in Starfleet. Not much difference between a Connie and an Intrepid or Nova class. If you convert thier speeds over to the new scale they are pretty fast too ( Not many ships can cruise at wf 6.5 MCU even in the DS9/Voyager era).
    Last edited by tonyg; 06-19-2006 at 09:35 PM.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by TFVanguard
    Again, the problem is how the Connies, et al, were presented as 'old' and 'obsolete' as early as the 2280s. If this is really true, then why would Star Fleet want to keep around the designs not just for existing ship lines (Miranda, et al), but also for entirely NEW designs while the next generation of ships was already out?

    And, of course, that begs the question of 'if the Connies are hopelessly outdated, why are Mirandas, Sivas, and even OTHER CONNIES serving front line duties a century later?'
    Sivas? Other connies? Bwuh?

    Look, just because the Mirandas have the same styling as a refit connie doesn't mean the internal components are going to be totally the same.
    Last edited by The Tatterdemalion King; 06-19-2006 at 09:47 PM.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Huth
    Sivas? Other connies? Bwuh?

    Look, just because the Mirandas have the same styling as a refit connie doesn't mean the internal components are going to be totally the same.
    Siva = Polaris = Refit Saladin class, appears in DS9.

    Constitution, appears in most graveyard scenes (basically the TSFS 'destroyed Enterprise' model)

    There's a few other 'Connie Era' ship designs in 'new Generation' as well.

    And, what I meant was, why could these ships get replacement components in them (I assume that the phasers on the DS9 Saratoga were NOT of the same type as the TVH Saratoga) and bring them lagely up to spec.. if the ship designs were obsolete? Again, very weak Trek argument here. Logic don't flow.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TFVanguard
    Siva = Polaris = Refit Saladin class, appears in DS9.
    Source? None of the kitbashes I recall had that name.

    Constitution, appears in most graveyard scenes (basically the TSFS 'destroyed Enterprise' model)
    That's just a blown up saucer–the front part, too.

    There's a few other 'Connie Era' ship designs in 'new Generation' as well.

    And, what I meant was, why could these ships get replacement components in them (I assume that the phasers on the DS9 Saratoga were NOT of the same type as the TVH Saratoga) and bring them lagely up to spec.. if the ship designs were obsolete? Again, very weak Trek argument here. Logic don't flow.
    But what makes them obsolete? The fact that their saucers curve up instead of down?

    The real reason, of course, is that they decided to re-use the miranda model and not the connie. If you want to make up a reason (adaptability of internal structure, compatibility of integral componenets, overall spaceframe wear and tear, etc), go ahead, but complaining that they made it hard is... unsporting :P

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Huth
    That's just a blown up saucer–the front part, too.
    Nope, the secondary hull, complete with trees in the atrium windows, is prominant in a couple of shots. No mistaking that, it's a Connie, albeit a dead one.

    But what makes them obsolete? The fact that their saucers curve up instead of down?
    Well, let's assume politics, really. The idea was that the role of the Constitution class was to be superceded by the Excelsior class, but that didn't pan out (initially) as well as hoped - which may have allowed the Constellation to act as a place-holder until the Excelsiors were debugged.

    The only real problem is the 'shelf life' of the Miranda and Oberth types. I can see the civilian Oberths pretty easily, but it's hard to accept any as ships of the line. Mirandas I just can't even begin to justify being ships of the line in DS9. It's possible that the Federation (being fat and lazy) decided to keep the 'workhorse frigates' around without making new ones.. but it's a bit hard to swallow.

    Of course, the real reason was that funding didn't allow for the 'real' Pegasus, et al, model to be built, and the models from TFSF were brought in to save money. DS9 didn't really have the excuse, though (since they were CGI ships) and should have used Ambassador-level frigates, at least.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Huth
    Source? None of the kitbashes I recall had that name.
    Oops, accidentally cut this. The 'saucer and one warp engine' (the Siva, because that was the 'fanon' name for the design back in the day) kitbash wasn't named, nor was the one with the rollbar and two warp engines at the end of the center pylon (often referred to as the Polaris).

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by TFVanguard
    Nope, the secondary hull, complete with trees in the atrium windows,
    We saw half a floating engineering hull, but there were no trees to be seen.

    Where's this Siva thing?

    The only real problem is the 'shelf life' of the Miranda and Oberth types. I can see the civilian Oberths pretty easily, but it's hard to accept any as ships of the line. Mirandas I just can't even begin to justify being ships of the line in DS9. It's possible that the Federation (being fat and lazy) decided to keep the 'workhorse frigates' around without making new ones.. but it's a bit hard to swallow.
    Well, then, come up with a better explanation.

    Of course, the real reason was that funding didn't allow for the 'real' Pegasus, et al, model to be built, and the models from TFSF were brought in to save money. DS9 didn't really have the excuse, though (since they were CGI ships) and should have used Ambassador-level frigates, at least.
    Maybe they didn't have the time to make Ambassador models. Or they just didn't think they looked cool...

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by C. Huth
    We saw half a floating engineering hull, but there were no trees to be seen.
    They're inside the atrium windows.

    Where's this Siva thing?
    DS9's Wolf 359 scenes, it's one of many kitbashes flying around. God awful ugly with the paint apps, though... my two-year-old could do better with water colors.

    Well, then, come up with a better explanation.
    Again, the problem is that Trek at once says Connies are 'hopelessly obsolete' repeatedly, and then throw LESSER ships of that era all over the place. The only reason that I can think of is that the Mirandas (may of which changed from the stock 'Reliant' design) had been carried over to serve support roles as the only 'new peacetime appropriations' were for the big ships like the Galaxy and Ambassador.

    Maybe they didn't have the time to make Ambassador models. Or they just didn't think they looked cool...
    Tough call. The scenes with the Mirandas are largely mass-fleet scenes and early on in the series, where they were refusing to use CGI (because Babylon Five was). So, they were using the model kits that they had. Hell, even Playmates killed out the ships in many shots. (The Playmates Klingon and Excelsior ships are used a LOT).

  9. #39
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    It might have been that the Federation was expanding so fast that they neeeded all the ships they could get thier hands on-even old outdated ones. Even a TOS era ship can trasnport good to colonists or run picket duty. Especially if things are fairly quiet.

    One reason why the same designs could still be used for over a centruy might be that there is no real major breakthough in weapon technology from TOS to TNG. Yes TNG ships have more powerful phasers, better photorp launchers, stronger shields, and can reach higher warp speeds, but they are still using phasers, photorps and deflector shields.

    There hasn't been a major breakthrough similar to what steam engines, iron hulls, all big gun ships, submarines, or aircraft did to change the rules of war in the 19th and 20th centuries. Starfleet seems to be prefecting the equipment they have rather than coming up with something beyond it.

    More like the old British Navy in the 16th-18th century. The ships get biggest and better but the technology stays the same. A 17th century ship would have worked fine in an 18th century navy (if the hull didn't rot out).

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TFVanguard
    They're inside the atrium windows.
    I see no trees.


    DS9's Wolf 359 scenes, it's one of many kitbashes flying around. God awful ugly with the paint apps, though... my two-year-old could do better with water colors.
    So what's with calling it a "siva"?

    Again, the problem is that Trek at once says Connies are 'hopelessly obsolete' repeatedly, and then throw LESSER ships of that era all over the place. The only reason that I can think of is that the Mirandas (may of which changed from the stock 'Reliant' design) had been carried over to serve support roles as the only 'new peacetime appropriations' were for the big ships like the Galaxy and Ambassador.
    'Lesser'? I'm not sure what that term means in this context.


    Tough call. The scenes with the Mirandas are largely mass-fleet scenes and early on in the series, where they were refusing to use CGI (because Babylon Five was). So, they were using the model kits that they had. Hell, even Playmates killed out the ships in many shots. (The Playmates Klingon and Excelsior ships are used a LOT).
    Studio preferences, that's all.

  11. #41
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    "there are four light, er-- trees."

    Seriously, I can't make uot any trees either, although I do see what I believe to be a Constitution-class hull.


    Does someone have a better picture that shows the trees? (Maybe Starfleet has Ent shocktroops on board.)

  12. #42
    I see no trees.
    Squint, dammit!

    So what's with calling it a "siva"?
    Variant class of FJ's Saladin. For years, part of fanon had that the Saladin refit would be the Siva.

    'Lesser'? I'm not sure what that term means in this context.
    Ships of 'lesser status' than the Constitution.

    Studio preferences, that's all.
    Actually, not quite. Paramount was very worried about Babylon Five (given the history) and didn't want to do what B5 was doing in recognizable ways. The CGI was part of that, since B5 was unique in CGI use at that time.

  13. #43
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    We're on page 3 of this topic and no stats or a list has made it yet. I think we are a bit far afield. TFV, I think you're going to have to decide for yourself what constitutes TOS. As too many seem to want to include movie era design into the lineage.
    Duct tape is like The Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.

    - Carl Zwanzig


  14. #44
    Hmm, you know what? You're quite right!

    So, to make up for it, attached is the WIP so far, which includes a lot of TOS-specific starship stuff (though not too well organized yet), the Constitution, Saladin, Hermes, and DY-100 classes.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by TFVanguard
    Ships of 'lesser status' than the Constitution.
    But what does that mean?

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