Impulse Driven System Defense ships (Icon, Coda, Spacedock)

[Captain Otto]

I have one question that has almost certainly been raised before, but so far I was not able to find the appropriate thread: Are System Defense Ships, a staple in any Traveller Campaign feasible (and could probably grand an advantage to the defender of a planet) in the Star Trek Universe?
The ships I have in mind are not able to go to warp at all and are only equipped with Impulse engines. Additional Power is provided for with bulky Fusion Reactors. These ships usually stick around the place they are charged to protect against harm, lest they will be easily outmanoeuvred by warpcapable ships.
The main purpose of these ships is to deter lightly armed Raiders, but a fully developed Planet could field hundreds of these inexpensive Vessels, without worrying about fuel shortages
(Hydrogen is abundant, but producing antimatter is a costly process not every Planet is capable of). Ranging from small Fighters up to and exceeding Cruiser size vessels, these ships could bolster the defences of any Planet. In concert with Warpcapable Ships and Stationary Defence Platforms or Satellites could greatly enhance a planets protection against spaceborne attacks. There have to be some types of system ships (the Bajoran Impuls ships serve as a good example, although modern Ships of this kind could easily be well on par with Warpcapable Ships regarding weapons and Shields).
This is, so far my theory. What’s your opinion?

[Tobian]

Feasible yes, any good at doing their jobs... Hmmmm not sure!

The only examples of what you mention to jump to mind are the Bajoran ships: They had an elderly defense fleet that was impulse only, and they pretty much harried the Cardassians within their own systems! But as an all out defense fleet they were pretty much a walk through for the Romulans who were trying to gt through them! That said the Bajoran technology was old and their ships were small.

There are a number of factors to consider if you were to build these: In both Icon and Spacedock, the amount of power per round is important for shields and phasers. Sure you can just stuff them to the gills with fusion reactors, but they are not as compact - for the power they produce! In Coda it doesn't make a difference, but in both senses, outside the rules, you have to decide if the ships are underpowered, to represent the fact they can't call on warp power for defense!

Are these ships meant to be for the main powers or for other, smaller powers? In the case of Bajor it was all they had access to and all they could mount: They just didn't have the resources neccessary to mount warp capable ships, or the expertise. In this sense it is extremelly likelly the less advanced, smaller or simply not as expansionistic powers are likelly to mount such a fleet, simply because it is the best and most cost effective available to them.

You can mount torpedo boats, which then bypass the need for power for weapons, but torpedoes are far more expensive, in terms of resources, and you always have a limit on production and ammount stored.. Phasers (or other beam weapons) rely on a simple function of the ships power generation to get 'ammo'.

Another problem you also face with no warp ships is that the ships with warp have a superb advantage over you - speed. Intrasystem travel is SLOW on Impulse.. while usually you wouldn't fly at warp in a dense system, for the obvious reason.. the difference is you CAN and if a battle depended on it, you would likelly take that risk! I seem to recall it took something like 3 hours for a Runabout to fly, at impulse, from bajor to DS9 - that's enough time to lose a war!!!

There are a number of mitigating factors you can compensate with... Fusion only ships CAN be capable of warp drive.. not fast, but some is better than none, and if it's only meant for an emergency, intersystem, then it will more than suffice. With either several, or one large fusion reactor you could meet the power needs for low warp. You could also simply have a suplementary warp core, for such cases, that you only use for warp speed, when needed ( to save on the antimatter). It's possible to inject minute quantities of antimatter into some fusion reactors, to give them a momentary boost, in case you need more power for shields/ phasers / emergency warp jump. 24th century Federation ships CAN make antimatter on board... It's very wasteful and energy intensive, but if you need it, it's better than nothing! You can of course simply have a huge honking fusion reactor power plant... DS9 has simple fusion, and it fields impressive shields and many phasers (once they installed them all) - It doesn't neccessarily last as long as a warp capable starship, maybe it burns hotter than normal, or simply has more battery storage cells, but then most weapons exchanges are fast and furious! So it might have time to recover!

[Phoenix]

You for got one example Tobian, Mars Defense Perimeter as shown in Best of Both Worlds. Unmanned, impulse speed, little ships. I think (big maybe) they were stated in The Dominion War SB.

Now as far as Monitors go, I've built one design based off the old FASA Monitor-class. It however has low warp capability, strictly for intercept purposes only. It was developed to replace or supplement the Mars Defense Perimeter Drones for use against superior opponents, i.e. the Borg. I've yet to finish the design, but I have nice images.

Found some more information on the Monitor Type-
A monitor was a special form of warship, little more than a self-propelled floating artillery platform that could move close inshore and give its support to military operations on land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_%28warship%29

[spyone]

Depends on what episode you are in.

Seriously, Trek is not consistant on whether Warp inside a solar system is a good idea or not, and that will be a key issue. If ships must drop out of warp while entering a system, then all ships inside the system will be travelling at Impulse speeds (just like in Traveller) and so a Impulse-only ship will not be at a disadvantage. (Even if the "Warp Threshold" is pretty close in, like Jupiter's orbit or even Mars', all ships in the inner system would be at Impulse.)
However, if you can go to Warp anywhere you please, ... well, several episodes have pointed out the advantages a warp-capable ship has tactically: engaging the warp drive for less than a second allows the ship to cover distances that are tremendous compared with Impulse speeds. Just remember that Warp 1 is 4 times as fast as Full Impulse, and Warp 2 is 10 times as fast as Warp 1. So a ship that can do Warp 2 is 40 times as fast (and 40 times as hard to target when moving) as a ship that is limited to Impulse speeds.

Personally, I like the idea of System Defense Boats, and would try to include them. But, given my leanings on Warp within a solar system, I may have to make them be capable of low Warp speeds.
(If ships have to "accelerate" to high warp factors, being slow on the Warp scale may not matter much for in-system fighting: if it takes a Galaxy Class 30 seconds (say) to reach Warp 9, and 5 seconds to reach Warp 3, then in a fight where nobody moves at Warp for more than 5 seconds a ship that tops out at Warp 3 (but can reach it in 5 seconds) is at no disadvantage. In fact, that sounds like how the Defiant was originally described: not very fast in the long run, but lots of acceleration and maneuverability.)

[Captain Otto]

Sure, in trek ships traveling at warp speeds are at a distinct advantage. The picard maneuver is an excellent example for this - if icorrecly recall it.
But on the other hand it could prove disasterous if someone at the helm makes a mistake and the ship runs in an stray asteroid.
Impulse only ships are certainly well advised to stay close o their home planet.
So the enemy will have to deal with them in any case if he wants to get to the Target.
A mixed Fleet (warp and impulse ships) would cancel out the advantage an attacker would have.
I think planetary governments who want somekind of spaceforce and Civilisations on the verge of developing Warpdrive will have some of these ships.

As for the fusion drives I think it wold not pose a real problem as system Defense ships have no need for many passengers, sciencesystems, consumables for more than a years worth. Not much more than weapons, sensors, Shields, Impulsesystem and some bare creature comforts.

[Tobian]

The Mars Defence perimiter ships are pretty much completelly vague - are they big photon torpedoes or little ships? They may have been statted, but the Jury's out on exactly what they are, canonically - in either case they are a white blob which races past the camera only to get destroyed by the borg in seconds LOL

Trek is very inconsistent on warp use in systems, but the party line is it's not recomended, but they frequently do it all the same. Warping out of a system, away from the accretion disc is obviously safer than warping in to the system, as going in to clear space is much easier than aiming at a planet, getting the sums wrong by nanoseconds and WHAM big fireball It's likelly in extremelly habitated systems like Earth's space debris is both constantly cleaned and heavilly monitored, so assuming you can tap into that database, it's safe(r) to warp in and out of that system closer to planets. In times of war warping in or near solar systems becomes a neccessity, despite the dangers, and outside of that I suspect it all depends on how arrogant and impatient the captain is (read Kirk hehe).

I pretty much agree though: Low warp is as much as is needed for such ships: As on the scale of solar-systems - flying at high warp is damn near suicidal within a planitary system!

So I guess the answer is the downsides to to having no warp core are minimal for such a defensive fleet, especially, as you mention, you can pare down the conten of the ship, and make it a flying fusion reactor

[tonyg]

Probably the best way to make a feasible system defense ship in Trek (Battle Riders?) is to just give them an impulse drive and no warp or even a low spped warp.

They can be feasible in part because the enemy will have to engage them at the protected points. For example, if the enemy is attacking Earth, then you know ehere they are going for and can fight them there.

From a design stanpoint, such ships don't get the battle rider adtage in firepower like they do in Traveller (ripping out the engines for more weapons doesen't give you much).

However, if you are just working up a pre-warp culture then yes you can make the ships work. Just keep in mind that they won't be much of a match for a cutting edge Starfleet ship-mostly due to the fact that all the other systrems will be anitiquated compared to Starfleet stuff.

I worked up a couple of cultures like this for my campaign. Essentially these culures had very limited warp drive capability. A few cultures had it, but it wasn't ver effiencent. I worked up a couple of cultures by reverse enginnering/fuding WWII ship data. I had most ships going .1-.3c with fightercraft being able to go faster.

[Captain Otto]

I have looked up the Mars Defense Perimeter Platform in DWS. They are most certainly not the Drones seen on Screen in TNG. They look like Spheres bristling with Phasers (Type XV) and Torpedolaunchers. They are completely immobile save for a reaction control system and are unmanned. They are Weapon platforms and no real ships. Probably the original ones were unmanned Probes but the Perimeter has been upgraded after the attack. Probably the drones were given up in favour for these Spheroids.

If someone wants to protect his entire system he is certainly well advised to include Warpcapable ships in his defences in addition to impulse only ships.

As for low Tech Races having an impulse only fleet, I had personal gaming experience with a Saber Class ship against 6 Impulse only ships. The Saber class proved to be victorious as the players disabled methodically one ship after another, but ultimately after they just disabled the fith ship, they opted for a fast retreat as their shields were on the verge of collapsing and the aliens were bringing up reinforcements. They blew the last ship apart that was blocking their way out of the system and made a clean getaway.
Probably the biggest advantage of Impulse only ships is that they are fast to produce (and probably quick to perish if standing alone in a fight). But a large number of these ships can bring down even a mighty Starfleet vessel primly designed for war.

[Captain Otto]

I designed the following System Defence Plan for a large and well established colony near the Romulan Border. There are 3 Billion Inhabitants and a large industrial base the local government can draw upon. The system –lets call it New Detroit serves as a rallying point for Starfleet vessels destined for patrol duty along the RNZ and a large orbital Facility, that services and maintains Starfleet ships. In addition there are orbital docks that produce new ships. Starfleet has recently contracted some of the largest local Ship Yard to produce Saber class ships. The Colonists are more than a bit uncomfortable with their Romulan neighbours (they are in fact almost paranoid). In addition to the Protection Starfleet offers, the local government not only build Civil defence shelters for the population but also maintains a moderately sized Fleet of Defence Ships. Due to political difficulties (the colony is represented in the Federation by Earth but some politicians are very vocal about independence from Earth and their own seat in the Federation Council) the local government settled for a relatively large Fleet of Impulse driven Ships (about 120 Frigate sized vessels and 30 Cruiser sized ones) . The planet itself and the local Ship Yards are also protected by Orbital Weapons platforms so the Impulse ships can rally to these Strongpoints to supplement the defences there. A smaller contingent of warpcapable ships (about 30 Frigate Sized and 5 Cruiser Sized vessels) serve as mobile Reserve. All ships are locally produced (and the industrie even sells ships to other planets to bolster their defences as well.
Another strongpoint in the system is a spacestation that Orbits the outermost Gas giant. The station converts Deuterium to antimatter. This makes the station a very valuable asset indeed.

On the Outskirts of the system is a Perimeter of unmanned Sensor Probes, recently updated for Tachyon detection sweeps as a early warning system. This is supplemented with small (warpcapable) Scoutships that goes as far as the neighbouring empty star systems to scout for intruding Romulans.
A top of this the local defence force fields 240 Fighters with about three Quarters of these are only impulse driven. The rest of theses ships can fly at low warp speeds.
Ground defence consists of emplaced Phaser batteries (Type IX-XI) protecting important sites and a moderately sized ground force (about 35.000 men) armed with Type 2 phasers.
I think this should suffice to stop anything short of a major Romulan
offensive.

[Tobian]

It sounds pretty good, though it has to be noted that (depending on the era) Even Starfleet shuttlecraft have warp drive, so it seems odd to have fighter crat that don't! Especially when the system is a) richly resourced and b) highly paranoid! (rightly so!) A System with it's own ship yards and antimatter production facilities is hardly short on the ability to upgrade it's fleet continuously and fuel them to the brim!

[Captain Otto]

I thought it more to be a political question. The system has probelms with those who want independence from earth. A fleet of Ships that can go to warp can also be used for acts of agression.
On the other hand they sell these ships to other worlds, for example fledgling Colonies that can't produce them.
So they use them as long as they can market them. Would you buy something the producer will not use?
On the other hand it still saves Antimatter and qualified personell as Fusion Reactors persumably have other a lot lower need for maintenance

[Captain Otto]

In addition I think not all the ships of a System defence fleet will be cutting edge designs.
If Starfleet lets his brightest Officers, explore the Galaxy in 2364 using Ships that have been in service for almost eighty or ninety years (Excelsior Class and Oberth Class ships) a local government is certainly not going to mothball its ships if they become outdated.
Effectively these ships will end up in low readiness and rear units, with less experience than the top line.
Most probably those older ships will serve as the last line of defence if everything else fails.
Imagine inexperienced crews aboard outdated ships fighting (and loosing) against Romulan Warbirds over the Sky of the planet as the better equipped ships have already been annihilated. They have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. Makes good stuff for epic stories though.

[Tobian]

I very much agree with you on the cutting edge aspect, but the flip side to that is: The Federation has had warp capable craft for 300 years in the 24th century. By then even the smallest shuttlecraft had warp drive (albeit only maybe warp 1.2 !) Depending on the era and setting I think that warp drive in ships is so defacto that it would be odd not to include them, possibly even costly... Black and white film and photos are more expensive than colour today, because of mass production: being retrograde can often be more expensive than it imediatelly appears in a mass production society!

That said, in the TOS era, shuttles were impulse only, so likewise all but the most cutting edge 'fighters' would be warp capable, indeed any kind of fighters could be a bit suicidal in that era! Small craft don't really come into their own till even late on in TNG or in DS9 and Voyager... TNG Shuttlecraft were slow, small, and underarmed, compared to later models, so really era is heavily important!

[Captain Otto]

I agree with you, but, since I included some really screwed politicans to the setting, you should alway remeber that those guy just look at the figueres and Say: "Hey, we can purchase two impulse only ships for one warp fighter craft."
Polticans usually are very dumb tacticians but they tell you what equipment will be purchased.

As the old saying goes "Always remember your weapon was produced by the lowest bidder"

[tonyg]

I agree with you, but, since I included some really screwed politicans to the setting, you should alway remeber that those guy just look at the figueres and Say: "Hey, we can purchase two impulse only ships for one warp fighter craft."
Polticans usually are very dumb tacticians but they tell you what equipment will be purchased.

As the old saying goes "Always remember your weapon was produced by the lowest bidder"

I doubt the cost of warp drive is quite that high though. For a Federation colony worlkd, warp drive is probably cheap enough to be feasible. At least at the high end of the tech scale.