Registered User
Chello!
::the sound of Lord K'jeran repeatedly smacking his ridged forehead against his monitor fills the room::
Why didn't I think of that? Elegant solution to the problem.
Let's add that to the list for everyone to comment on as a third possibility.
Make it:
3. No SF Chaplain Corps, but civilains are retained on board ships. They could still assist the Counselor, be a bartender, or serve in Sickbay (even today, many religious orders emphasize medical training).
Registered User
I concede that True Trek is anti-religion, at least the humans are. I've toyed with the idea of changing that so that all the humans belong to my church and suggesting that Trek would be a fulfilment of prophecy. I would certainly make Trek more religion- friendly. I enjoy True Trek despite the philosophical differences I have with it. I even consider those differences insignificant.
Let's see, who is asking for flamewars to be avoided, and whose posts are the most flamelike? hmm...
I agree that Dan's overlay is much better than mine. What do you expect? It's my first ever overlay! I hereby abandon it.
I do agree that the chaplain is an assistant counselor, on those few ships that have chaplains.
I think it's a good idea for the chaplains to be civilians. In fact, I more or less was thinking that with my overlay! maybe the overlay covers eight years of training...
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
Moderator
But Dont give up Cochrane... i dont subscribe to the Chaplin group myself, but felt that a positive response was required over the same old anti-religious stuff...<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cochrane:
I agree that Dan's overlay is much better than mine. What do you expect? It's my first ever overlay! I hereby abandon it.
</font>
Your input in the initial template was good inspiration for where to direct the skills and abilities for the template. I myself am quite significantly anti-religion, so my lack of experience would have shown through had I not seen your template to guide me.
Besides, you made some kick-ass life packages...
So I for one am looking forward to any rules input you put forward in the future.
BTW; Thanks for the kind words guys...
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DanG.
"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk
[This message has been edited by Dan Gurden (edited 08-13-2001).]
Registered User
Wow - this thread has gone on and on now hasn't it?
As some might have noticed on another thread I've developed a colony world (Avalon - it is a very silly place) that is largely Catholic (in fact the largest center of Catholics in the UFP, and thus the known galaxy) - with a touch of the Python. Intended as a short "shore leave" spot several real life and game time years ago for a "in the UFP" adventure it - and the opportunity to expore faith in the Trek universe- proved way more popular than expected with my players. Who, by the way, run quite a spectrum of real life belief structures.
In due course I've even added a Catholic Chaplain character (I'm in the US Navy so it was sort of a nod to current Chaplains really). I guess I just was lazy or something because I just made him a Counselor. Basically that is the role he plays - "pastoral" duties for the crew (he is also, like most current day Chaplains a certified therapist) that are identical to other Counselors, advice to the CAPT as needed. It just happens that in addtion to his standard duties he also performs church duties to the small Catholic community (Avalon natives - hey two players insisted- it is a very silly place), and theological support to all faiths on board (again just like in real life a Chaplain will support all "recognized" faiths). But then again I have always had all my Counselors act as a sounding board for a character facing a moral crisis.
Main conflicts that have come up have been: if a character confides in him within the bounds of "confession" then he will NOT discuss it with anyone - including the CAPT - under any conditions, so far this has not been tested as I've not really done anything with this NPC - he was mostly added for "color".
Also he is a non-combatant and will not fight (NOTE: I'm NOT saying all Chaplain's would be) which could become quite an issue in a DW game for instance. But then - we've seen Doctor's with the same conviction and they are allowed to serve. I treat it like I would a strict Vulcan character.
As far as other faiths go - it is a running in-character joke with several PC's that the Vulcan belief structure is an orthodox religion (which I think it is shown as such in the show) - even some of the more "Fleet" Vulcan's will admit it in private. Of course we have the Klingons who are religious, but I treat Worf as sort of an extreme there. I've stayed clear of Bajor for the most part - just haven't come up with any good Bajoran stories.
Just my fuel for the fire,
TK
Registered User
Maybe I'd better get to work on those Vulcan, Andorian, Betazoid, Bajoran, Bwuutut, and Mensaean chaplain packages. I don't know what kind of overlays or packages I might do that aren't religious, maybe ones specific to cultures I created. Maybe new Andorian Kethni, or Romulan Houses. Maybe Vulcan Houses. I think I'll finish reading the construction chapter of spacedock soon, so maybe I'll write up some ships.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
Registered User
I think a combination of all three chaplain ideas should be used based on ship size, ship demography, and particular religious dogma.
For example, on a medium sized ship with large groups of Andorian Methodists and Betazoid Neo-Buddhists and a smattering of other religious groups, the ship's counselor service might includes chaplains for the Methodists and Buddhists and allow other religious needs be met by offering extra-berth space to civilian religious leaders and would allow other crewmember to take leadership roles in their religions.
Remember not every religion is structured the same. Some sects within the same religion could have alternate rules on who can preach the word. For instance, in my belief, if I had the inclination and knowledge and a calling, I could call myself a pastor and start preaching the word without giving up my career. The only time I would need any kind of documentation would be if I wanted to officiate weddings and funerals and to be allowed in some churches.
I, if I were a pastor, could work within another organization either as an official counselor or by holding down a regular job and preaching on the side.
Other religions have tougher rules about taking a religious lead position ranging from performing certain rituals are going through certain training, and some have structures that they cannot work outside of.
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"The best mind-altering drug is truth."
--Lily Tomlin
Registered User
In my church, to hold any position, you must be assigned to that position by higher leaders under inspiration. It is considered wrong to aspire to a leadership position. It might be a little different for chaplains.
What are some thoughts on aliens converting to human religions and vice versa? I think some Andorians might start their own Mormon sects because of the polygamy thing, by the way I'm tempted to say the standard four person Andorian marriages are one man with three wives. It makes more sense to me since one man can have three pregnant wives at once. Maybe a few Vulcans, Centaurans, and Betazoids might like Mormonism.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
Registered User
That's odd. While I LOVED B5, I got the distinct impression that the author was stating as canon for the show that all followers of the Christian faith were misguided, having mistaken Vorlons for Angels or even God.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grumpy:
J. Michael Strazynsky is a talented writer. He was able to deal with religion, faith and spirituality in a dignified and respectful manner even though he did not believe in it himself. As such, he accomplished more than most Star Trek writers. More over, one does not get the feeling, in watching his show, that he begrudges any one their faith. This is not the case for Star Trek.</font>
Which is neither here nor there. The point remains that the only proof you have offered that the Trek authors disdained religion is that you think they did.
All true. And if someone asked about how to include Religion into their game, they would likely be met with the same reaction.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If any one had ask about the mechanics of putting women into a Star Trek game, it would not even be an issue...
If any one had ask about the mechanics of putting a homosexual into a Star Trek game, no one would have objected. .... (many others)</font>
The question here was about Chaplains, which is an Officer whose duties pertain to Religion. That is different.
If you asked if Starfleet would have a Female Relations Officer, expect discussion.
If you asked if Starfleet would have a Homosexual Activites Coordinator, expect opinionated discussion.
If you asked if Starfleet would have a (insert race name) Relations Officer, expect lively discussion.
If you asked if Starfleet would have a Youth Corps like the Boy Scouts, expect lively discussion (in fact, visit it as this has happened).
If you asked if Starfleet would have a Political Studies Officer to provide study of political systems and views, expect some people to feel this would be handled by Sociology.
Go back to the top of this post. The question posted was not about "the existence of spirituality, religion and faith" but exclusively about the "role of Chaplains in Star fleet" and whether there was one.
While the majority of us seem to feel there is not really a role for an Official, Starfleet endorsed Religious Officer, we all made it clear it was our opinions (as opposed to fact), and why we felt that way. And most of us felt that religious tolerance was in fact at odds with the traditional post of "Chaplain", because it would be nearly impossable for him to impartially represent all faiths.
No one except you saidI agree this could easilly devlove into flame-war, since you seem to be incapable of arguing your points without resulting to deliberate insults.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">“Why That Should Not And Would Not Be.”</font>
[/B][/QUOTE]
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Registered User
Additional comments from me, then some from my brother:
Simply, Grumpy, I feel that you might be oversensative to insult on these matters. Perhaps you have recieved a great deal of conflict with others owing to their disdain of your beliefs. Whatever the cause, I think that your perception of insult from both Star Trek's writers and the members of this board, owes more to you expecting to be insulted than anything that was actually said or done.
While I do not doubt that you genuinely feel insulted by these things, I pray you represent a small fraction of the audience. I know of many profoundly religious people, including members of my own family and ordained clergy (and those who are in both groups), who have never expressed feeling that Star Trek had insulted their beliefs.
My brother's comments:
Firstly, I believe I agree with you, in that I do see that in our society religion seems to have taken on a "don't-ask-don't-tell" aspect, which creates an impression of disdain among the profoundly religious. Even saying, "Bless You" to someone who has not just sneezed often creates an uncomfortable reaction, as if the speaker has just assumed a more familiar role than is warrented. And try telling someone that you will pray for them .....
Public mention of religious practices can often meet with a hostile reaction, and sadly the profoundly religious often seem to have the strongest reactions.
Repeated statements of your position does not constitute persuasive argument. While I am a calm and tolerant man, I became angry with you for repeatedly not citing instances that support your position: that religion is treated intolerantly. Even when the request was for specific examples of religious characters being treated with "sneering contempt", you cite examples of other things being handled well but none of religion being handled badly.
I don't doubt that you saw things that made you feel this way, but as most of the people here do not appear to have gotten the same impression, even those of us who hold strong religious beliefs, I would like the ability to look at them again myself. But I cannot examine the evidence if I am not given any. You say, "By comparison, any expression of faith, religion or spirituality is automatically and out-of-hand condemned by the programs (with the exception of DS9) and the fandom. Religion, faith and spirituality, through the Star Trek lens, are damned at birth – so to speak." (repeatedly), yet cite no examples of such behavior, even though you have cited examples of when other things (sexuality, race, gender) are NOT treated in this way.
Repeated statements of your position does not constitute persuasive argument.
Religion on TV is damned from the start to a life of ignominity. It can never form as large a part of the characters' life as it does in the lives of real people, in part because religion forms so large a part of the lives of real people. Religion is like the Third Rail; step on it and die.
If a real religion were to appear on a TV show, it creates a bias in the minds of the viewers. Shows like "7th Heaven" risk accusations that they promote "Christian values" which, while fine with the Christian viewers, may alienate those of other faiths. And can alienate Christian viewers who feel that the values being shown are not the ones they would like to see promoted.
Some shows can bear the reduction in audience that results (though this is a major reason why religion-oriented shows are predominately christian), but Sci-Fi shows are living with a fraction of the mainstream audience already, and are less willing/able to risk alienating part of their potential audience.
If there were a Catholic Church on the Promenade on DS9, that runs the risk of alienating non-Catholics. It also runs the risk of alienating Catholics who feel that their church is not being portrayed well (acurately). If one of the Catholic Priests were shown to be less than pure in his beliefs (in it for the power, say), many Catholics might well decide the show was accusing their faith of falsehood. Many other faiths might see this as a case of "but for the grace of God", and similarly take offense. For this reason, it would be ill advised to run such a story among the Bajoran faith while a real-world religion is also represented on the show. Every other faith could see this as a ratification of Catholicism, and the Bajorans as proxy for all other faiths.
In fact, even without a real-world religion tie-in, such story lines are dangerous set in the fictional religions of the show, for the risk of real-world clergy viewing this as a veiled attack on them. (Spyone injects that he is amazed there wasn't more outcry from certain clergy about Kai Winn).
In fact, we may be going out on a limb by calling the alien faiths "fictional". I'm sure there is somewhere a Klingon Church, and they probably aren't happy with some of how their faith was portrayed in Star Trek.
It is a credit to the writers that they, bound by a restriction that their characters must be largely a-religious (showing no religious beliefs) for political reasons, actually acknowleged it as a part of the characters. Whereas Picard always seemed indecicive on the issue to me, for his carefully refusing to commit to having religious beliefs or not, and it seemed to be the one area where he lacked "the courage of his convictions" (ie a certitude that he was right) Janeway, at least, got off the fence and came down on one side.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Registered User
Spyone's brother is strongly in favor of Chaplains in Starfleet. His thoughts below:Firstly, the method of selection is independant of the position in the Department structure.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lord Kjeran:
I think the general consencus is evenly divided between the following two ideas:
1. That the Chaplain is a Deputy or Assistant to the Ship's Counselor.
2. Chaplains are assigned to ships under the Captain/First Officer in their own Department. In this instance, the religion and/or race of the chaplain would reflect the composition of the majority of the crew. The chaplain would have assistants who would be chaplains of other faiths with a significant minority among the crew.
</font>
Placing Chaplains in their own Depeartment seems better. There will be a lot of cross-over with Cultural Studies. One could be a part of the other. (Spyone asks if it is sacreligious to put the Department of Religion in the Sciences Department.
However, the selection of Chaplain for a ship should be entirely random. This prohibits anything that can look like Starfleet endorsing some religions and not others, or punishing someone by seperating him from a same-faith chaplain. All Chaplains are equal in the eyes of Starfleet (except for those who outrank the others), and rank in the Clergy does not automatically translate to rank in the service ("Lt.Cardinal, meet Capt.Novitiate").
The job of a Chaplain is, after all, to serve as a genaric religious leader and proxy for ordained clergy of one's own faith.
The religions probably won't mind, trusting God to steer the chaplain to where he is most needed.
Chaplains will tend to ask for transfer to areas where there is a large concentration of their own faith, and people will tend to ask for transfer to ships that have a chaplain of thier faith, but no effort is made at the administrative level to match these personnel up.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Registered User
First, you appear to have a mass-media understanding of Mormonism (more properly, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints). Not being Mormon myself, I feel ill equipped to clarify, but polygamy is currently practiced by splinter groups, as the main church preaches compliance with the laws of the nation, and places that above biblical recommendations of multi-wife marriages.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cochrane:
What are some thoughts on aliens converting to human religions and vice versa? I think some Andorians might start their own Mormon sects because of the polygamy thing, by the way I'm tempted to say the standard four person Andorian marriages are one man with three wives. It makes more sense to me since one man can have three pregnant wives at once. Maybe a few Vulcans, Centaurans, and Betazoids might like Mormonism.
</font>
Andorians having 4 people in a marriage always struck me as having some interesting possabilities.
For instance, perhaps a "male" is incapable of impregantain a "female" without an outside stimulous. Perhaps physioligically, multiple members are required. Prehaps they have 4 different genders.
Or perhaps their marriage is more a social contract. Perhaps 2 couples agree to co-habitate and share child-rearing. Perhaps their "marriage" is more like what we would call an "extended family".
There are so many possabilities.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Registered User
Since we have all been sharing,
I have been to churches where the clergy was open to anyone who felt the call.
I know of churches where the clergy is open to anyone who will mail $40 to a given PO Box.
I know of churches where the Clergy is strongly heirarchical, and where someone who wishes to join is both taught the precepts and given tests of his intent and devotion designed to weed out those not truly called.
I know of churches where the clergy is strongly heirarchical and where someone who wishes to join is carefully indoctrinated and screened to be certain he will not disagree with established doctrine.
And I know of churches where no official clergy is recognized, and the task of writing and reading a sermon and setting topic for discussion (effectively chairing the meetings) is rotated among the congregation on a regular basis.
Lastly, I know of churches where the clergy is selected by the congregation by vote, at a regular interval.
"Allah delights in wonderous variety" I guess. But it does make it hard to tell the men of god from the frauds, and religions from social clubs.
One of the problems Starfleet will face in selecting Chaplains is just that, how to tell who is and who is not clergy for a religion. I can offer no system that works consistantly. Perhaps the best system is to admit all who claim to be.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Registered User
I wonder, would "Charmed" (a show I hate) be called religious?
Seventh Heaven doed indeed go against some of my own Christian values, as does Touched by an Angel.
Oh, I sure hope no one has founded a Klingon Church!
I think Starfleet ought to choose chaplain assignments based on who's aboard, and vice versa.
SpyOne, I belong to the LDS church. I know its history and doctrine. I said the Andorians might start their own sects because the True Church is not now polygamous, although in a ficticious universe that could change. Those andorian sects would be like the splinter groups you mentioned.
In my church, the actual leaders run the meetings, but pretty much anyone in the congregation can write and give a "sermon" (we normally use the word "talk" in the place of "sermon") After a person is chosen, the congregation votes, although in my experience it is usually unanimous or close to it since we believe those in authority always make the right decision. Just about everyone has some sort of position.
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Games. The Final Product. These are the books of the Star Trek RPG. Their five year license. To explore strange new roles. To breathe new life into get togethers. To boldly play what no fan has played before!
Registered User
Then I bow to your expertise.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cochrane:
SpyOne, I belong to the LDS church. I know its history and doctrine. I said the Andorians might start their own sects because the True Church is not now polygamous, although in a ficticious universe that could change. Those andorian sects would be like the splinter groups you mentioned.</font>
While I have attended some LDS services, including standard Sunday services and a Baptism, I was far more interested in the pretty girl next to me (and making a good impression on her parents) than in understanding their deeper doctrine. Only in later years did I bother reading any of the Book of Mormon.
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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.
Moderator
Why is it that, when the Latter Day Saints are referred to in initials, I always think of Kirk explaining Spock in STIV as;
"He took too much LDS in the Sixties."
It wasn't until you mentioned the 'Book of Mormon' that my brain made the connection!
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DanG.
"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."
http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk
[This message has been edited by Dan Gurden (edited 08-16-2001).]
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