Tellarite Engineer Skills

[stule]

I am currently making an NPC Starfleet Tellarite Engineer.

For his racial Template, he gets Any Engineering (Choose 2 Specializations) 2 (3).

When I apply the Engineer Overlay, it gives him Any Engineering (Choose 2 Specializations) 2 (3).

What would his new skill level be?

It's either:
Any Engineering (Choose 2 Specializations) 2 (4).
or
Any Engineering (Choose 2 Specializations) 3 (3).
or
Any Engineering (Choose 2 Specializations) 3 (4).

Anyone give me a hint?

[tonyg]

Hint: It depends on if you take the same type of engineering skill twice or not.

Hint 2: The game designers were working under the assumption that players would go for breath and diversity rather than going for the D&D approach of trying to max out one skill.

[Owen E Oulton]

As I see it, the player can take several approaches here.

A) He can take two different Skills with attendant Specialisations. As an example:
Systems Engineering (Computer Systems) (Transporter Systems) 2 (3) (3) plus
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3)

B) He can take the same Skill with four different Specialisations:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3) then
Propulsion Engineering (Ion Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 2 (3) (3), which gives
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) (Ion Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 2 (3) (3) (3) (3)
due to the way skills ablate. More on this later.

C) He can take the same Skill with three different Specialisations:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3) then
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 2 (3) (3).
Since the Warp Drive specialisation makes the Skill add to itself, the result is:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 4 (5) (5) (5)

D) He can take the same Skill with four different Specialisations:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3) then
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3), giving
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 4 (5) (5).

Naw, to the subject of skill ablation, the biggest problem with the ICON system... The way skills add up in the default character generation procedure means that a character supposedly worth 125 points can add up to 100 points or less. This is a problem because the game also gives a point-buy option where you can simply buy 125 points worth of Attributes, Skills and Traits. The solution? Once you've created your character, add up the total point value. If it's less than 125 points, allow the player to add the difference to the character's point value. Where the character has multiple Tours of Duty and/or Schools bringing the total points over 125, no adjustment is needed, regardless of skill ablation.

The point value of 125 noted above is officially applied only to Starfleet and other military characters, enlisted and civilian characters have lower points given for Templates, et cetera. However, I'm not a real big fan of making military characters way more skilled than civilians, so I allow all characters to bring their points up. This gives civilians more leeway to pick up non-standard skills due to the larger resulting pool of optional points, true, but I encourage them to buy w wide range of low-level recreational skills, et cetera.

I only apply this to PCs, not to NPCs, because after all, they're the stars of the story.

[LUGTrekGM]

Since it is 2 skills of level 2 with 2 specs, Assess it as follows:

DP cost: You have 2 skill levels X 3 each = 6 + 1 spec, per award.
Two of these, one from Tellarite racial, and one from engineering = 14 DP total.

A) He can take two different Skills with attendant Specialisations. As an example:
Systems Engineering (Computer Systems) (Transporter Systems) 2 (3) (3) plus
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3).

Correct. And as stated earlier in the thread, more or less where the designers were intending. (I think).

B) He can take the same Skill with four different Specialisations:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3) then
Propulsion Engineering (Ion Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 2 (3) (3), which gives
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) (Ion Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 2 (3) (3) (3) (3) due to the way skills ablate. More on this later.

I beg to differ. The Engineering award is giving two full levels after the Racial Award, not just specializations, a critical difference. Yes, the text is muffed up.

The same skill with specs in the example above would be:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) 2 (3)
(Impulse Drive) (3)
Plus
Propulsion Engineering (Ion Drive) 2 (3)
(Transwarp Drive) (3)
Equals
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) 4 (5)
(Impulse Drive) (5)
(Ion Drive) OR (Transwarp Drive) (5) << but not both.

This is because the spec of the skill awarded by Tellarite racial is free (Warp Drive), for the first level of the skill. Any specs after that have to be paid for, thus (Impulse) costs 1 DP.

The later engineering award is not a new spec in 2 areas (yeah, the text is really bad on this & muddled), but 2 levels in the original, plus a spec, if you take the same skill, because only the first spec of a skill is free.

If you branch out to a new skill area, you will get a free spec. Still only 14 DP spent, though.

He can take the same Skill with three different Specialisations:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3) then
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 2 (3) (3).
Since the Warp Drive specialisation makes the Skill add to itself, the result is:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) (Transwarp Drive) 4 (5) (5) (5)

Exactly. 14 DP spent.

D) He can take the same Skill with four different Specialisations:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3) then
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 2 (3) (3), giving
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) (Impulse Drive) 4 (5) (5).

This will actually result in:
Propulsion Engineering (Warp Drive) 4 (6)
(Impulse Drive) (5)
OR
Propulsion Engineering (Impulse Drive) 4 (6)
(Warp Drive) (5)
With total 14 DP spent, either way. Again, the first level of the spec is free. Further study adds levels, but specs must be paid for.

Naw, to the subject of skill ablation, the biggest problem with the ICON system... The way skills add up in the default character generation procedure means that a character supposedly worth 125 points can add up to 100 points or less. This is a problem because the game also gives a point-buy option where you can simply buy 125 points worth of Attributes, Skills and Traits. The solution? Once you've created your character, add up the total point value. If it's less than 125 points, allow the player to add the difference to the character's point value. Where the character has multiple Tours of Duty and/or Schools bringing the total points over 125, no adjustment is needed, regardless of skill ablation.

To avoid this, I just assess when a skill is awarded add 3 DP, a spec, add 1 DP. Then yeah, check it later, if it feels off.

And also 125 points is for Starfleet, with one tour. If you have characters with multiple tours, then it will be more or less 5 DP per tour after the first.

The point value of 125 noted above is officially applied only to Starfleet and other military characters, enlisted and civilian characters have lower points given for Templates, et cetera. However, I'm not a real big fan of making military characters way more skilled than civilians, so I allow all characters to bring their points up. This gives civilians more leeway to pick up non-standard skills due to the larger resulting pool of optional points, true, but I encourage them to buy w wide range of low-level recreational skills, et cetera.

I only apply this to PCs, not to NPCs, because after all, they're the stars of the story.

I only give it to Starfleet PCs. *shrug* C'est la vie.

[stule]

Thanks guys!

Next time I will be more specific but I really appreciate you guys going into detail.

I am really starting to like the ICON system.

[LUGTrekGM]

No problem, like I said I work with this all day and night, just doing NPCs.

Look for my large LUG player doc next month. I'll announce it when it's done.

[stule]

Schweeeeeeeet!!!

[Evan van Eyk]

When I doubt I suggest, just take the points and don't bother with any "calculations" of actual skill values. If you get another value for a skill with 2/3, just take the 3 DPs per skill rating and distribute them as you see fit, meaning adding specializations, maybe a matching advantage, etc.

[LUGTrekGM]

Yeah, that's the same as what I suggest, just spending the points differently, instead of trying to match the suggested template or verlay or various steps of the career awards.

In the end, it's all 125 pts for a beginning PC with one tour, using the Basic Cadet Cruise from TOS or TNG (1 DP).
DS9 PCs get 105 Pts, with one career.

Other options:
Additional tours of 2-7 Years length add 5 DP per tour. (DS9 rules use a different system)
TOS & TNG PCs Using the Expanded Cadet Cruise from TNG Player's Guide instead gives 4 DP vs 1 for the Cruise.
Using the Starfleet Academy Boxed Set Personality Rules conveys 5 DP.

Spend points how you like:

Attributes 2 DP [Limits based on racial maximums, per race template]
Edges 1 DP*
Skill 3 DP
Specialization 1 DP
Advantages Variable Cost
Disadvantages Variable (Gives DP on a 1 for 1 basis)**

*Note: Characters cannot change edges more than 4 steps (of all edges combined) during Character Creation (Other than what the racial template gives the character to start with.) Increasing, or decreasing a single edge by a point counts as one of the four potential ”Changes.” After Character Creation: During game play, with Narrator's Permission, Edges can change as much as the Narrator permits.

**Suggested: 8 Disadvantage points Maximum.

[stule]

I want the Starfleet Academy box set!!!

GRRRRR.

I have so far:
TNG Core Rules
DS9 Core Rules
TOS Core Rules
TNG Players Guide
The First Line
Planets of the UFP
Price of Freedom (recently bought this one)

Must have Academy......hmmmmmm

[LUGTrekGM]

Averages 20.00 US on ebay, any given week, sometimes cheaper.
I might toss one of my spares up around Christmas.

If you are running an academy-Based series, or will have a few scenarios set at the academy, yeah, it's definitely a must-have. the Solar system map is nice, too.

[tonyg]

I want the Starfleet Academy box set!!!

GRRRRR.

Must have Academy......hmmmmmm

One on my local gaming stores used to have a copy in thier used gaming bin. Would you like me to check on it for you?

[stule]

Sure Tony!

I am looking at one on Ebay, they want $20.00 + shipping so it would be about $25.00.

If you store has it, give me a shout!

I am on all the time.

I look at the site about 4-5 times aday (yeah I'm pathetic).

[LUGTrekGM]

Hey, Stule, heads up. In reviewing all of this for the Compendium, I think I have a clarification for you.

I just looked at the initial question, and not the actual full character, species template, etc. (Which I should have done, and am now doing for all the core books, plus supplements, to fill this Compendium out.

I Checked my math. Tellarite is defitely one skill at 2 (3) and another (3) same skill, off the race template, as follows (TNG Book)

TELLARITE (TNG Version)
Stocky and vaguely porcine, Tellarites are known for their engineering skill and argumentative natures. A Tellarite will debate simply for the enjoyment it gives him (though they do not, as a rule, question the orders of their commanding officers). They can typically be found serving throughout Starfleet, most often as engineers and scientists.

								DP
Attributes
  Fitness 3 [6]							6
  Coordination 2 [5]						4
        Reaction +1						1
  Intellect 2 [5]						4
  Presence 2 [5]						4
        Empathy -1						-1
  Psi 0 [5]							0

Skills
  Any Engineering (choose Specialization) 2 (3)	                6
	            (another Specialization) (3)		1 
  Culture (Tellarite) 2 (3)					6
  History (Tellarite) 1 (2)					3
  Language
        Tellarite 2						6
  Persuasion (Debate) 2 (3)					6
  World Knowledge (Tellar) 1 (2)				3

Typical Advantages/Disadvantages
  Argumentative -1						-1
  Infrared Vision +2						2
						TOTAL	50

The original Template on p. 65 Read: Any Engineering (Choose two specializations) which seemed slightly confusing, exactly.
The points breakdown shows it to be 7 for that which is level 2 plus 1 spec, same skill.

Thanks for asking this, it will help the compendium.

[LUGTrekGM]

Likewise, TOS Engineer:

Both the places where it is saying "Choose two specializations" they must be specializations of the same skill (if you go strictly by the template, and point costs.)

This is what it should look like, for clarity:

	                                                        DP
Computer (Modeling) 2(3)					6
Engineering, Any (choose a Specialization) 2(3)			6
                         (choose another Specialization) (3)	1
Engineering, Any Other (choose Specialization) 1(2)		3
Physical Science (choose Specialization) 1 (2)			3
Shipboard Systems (choose a Specialization) 2 (3)		6
		        (choose another Specialization) (3)	1
Athletics (choose Specialization) 1 (2)				3
Dodge 1							        3
Energy Weapon (Phaser) 1 (2)				        3
Language					
            Federation Standard 1				3
History (Federation) 1 (2)					3
Law (Starfleet Regulations) 1 (2)				3
Personal Equipment (choose Specialization) 1 (2)		3
Planetside Survival (choose Specialization) 1 (2)		3
Vehicle Operations (Shuttlecraft) 1 (2)				3
		        (One other Vehicle) (2)			1			
                                    		        TOTAL 54