ICON is lethal!

[stule]

Wow!!!

I thought CODA was dangerous.

The rules for ICON make it more like the TV series than Coda does. It's rather easy to get stunned and even killed.

I like the rules for combat so far.

The more I play this version of Star Trek the more I wish there were more products for this system.

No worries though, within a few more weeks I will own all the books for this system!

WAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!!

[C5]

The little caveat in ICON combat rules was that, while combat could be quite lethal for an average character, tough characters became almost unbeatable. A really tough Klingon or Jem'Hadar, for instance, could whitstand phaser hits that would have vaporized any other humanoid.
Then again, this can be seen as another way to emulate what we saw on screen when Kirk punched a Gorn...

[LUGTrekGM]

Hey, stule, you want more products, write some more, after you learn the system.

I'm working on:

- what will tentatively be called the "Player's Compendium"

I will then tackle, over 2007:

- an associated character generation software to replace Admiral Reliant's Next Gen character program, which has not been updated for about 8 years. It works, but there are some bugs in it.

- some kind of scenario writing software that uses the 3 act / 9 act model, so that you can push a button and get a scenario outline, or edit it on the fly, kind of a template thing. It's just at the concept stage, for now.

[stule]

Sweet idea LUG!

Why the hell not?

It's not like I got something better to do lol!!!

After I get a few games under my belt, I think I will try to put together something.

Thanks for the idea!!

[Ergi]

The little caveat in ICON combat rules was that, while combat could be quite lethal for an average character, tough characters became almost unbeatable. A really tough Klingon or Jem'Hadar, for instance, could whitstand phaser hits that would have vaporized any other humanoid.
Then again, this can be seen as another way to emulate what we saw on screen when Kirk punched a Gorn...

But that would have been stun damage. Resistance you gain from high Fitness + ??? works against all forms of damage. I like the idea of a tough character shrugging of a blow to the belly, but I don't understand why the same character should be less susceptible to blades or bullets. The system already grants him more hit points, so, relative to his species norm, he would be less affected by, say, a stab with a knife, dealing 10 points of damage. There was no need to make characters more or less damage-proof, letting them completely ignore the first few points of damage.

[LUGTrekGM]

Ponder....

I hear this talk about how it's impossible to kill stuff with phasers, especially Klingons.

Andorian Security Red Shirt
Fitness 4, vitality + 2 = Resistance 6

This above is a sample Andorian Security Officer template from TNG. pp 59.

Figure the most buffest Klingons might be, what? 25%-33% tougher? Certainly the average PC Klingon Ensign Equivalent is (can you believe it) 16% Less tough than our antennae'd boy in blue-face, here.

The DS9 Template for a half-klingon Rebel is saying Fit 3, Vitality +2, Ditto for the Klingon Smuggler, and Klingon PC Template. Fit 3 Vitality +2....but let's do press on...

Our aforementioned Ando...
7 wound levels X 6 pts per Wound level = 42 HP

Damage to non-critical areas X 1
Damage to abdomen/ stomach X 1.5
Damage to Head X 2 (so the above sample shot in the head is taking only 21 HP, effectively, before being killed.)

Dramatic Successes typically add 1-2 damage dice. Let's ignore that for now, just for efficient calculations.

Wound Levels:
Healthy
Stunned +1 diff to tests, - 1 init, dodge, parry
Injured + 2 diff to tests, - 2 init, dodge, parry
Wounded +4 diff to tests - 4 init, dodge, parry
Incapacitated (unconscious 2-12 minutes, then lies there bleeding upon awakening, cannot do anything else.) << 29 points minimum.
Near Death (will die in 6 minutes without first aid, hours later without sickbay.)
Killed (Cue McCoy)

So 29 points (after 7 resistance, so 36 points), will put this guy out like a light.

"Vaporizing A Humanoid"(tm) by the chart, requires Light Disrupt C setting.
Let's for purposes call it "Set Phasers on kill."
(This is, by the way, the max for a type I TNG hand phaser, but nowhere near what a type II or type III will do.)

This little Type I does 16+ 4d6 Damage, or 20 with a rare minimum, 40 with a rare maximum roll, 30 average.

Ensign Klingon (with no armor) can take 35, (not 42, like our ando sample) before dying. His Resistance of 5 means he got hit with effectively 25 HP out of 30, on an average roll.

We're generous. Tossing in Toughness (+2) = (+1 Fitness) so ENS. Klingon has 42 HP, (6 per level, 7 levels) But a head shot here will put him down with only 21 points, 1 above the minimum 16+ 4d6 roll.

Now this is the limit for the type I Phaser from TNG.

One notch up the scale, Light Disrupt D with a type II Phaser, or "Light Disrupt" on a Romulan or Klingon Disruptor does 24 + 5d6, either way.

So, 29 with a rare low, to 54 with a rare high, average 41-42 or so.

If you want to go for the full 10 shots in your Type II phaser, you can dish out 10 shots worth 160 + 12d6 at full bore, wide-open muzzle.

Okay, so...this seems to tell me:

When hunting Klingons, or Jem'Hadar, wearing armor, go for head shots, or bring a phaser pistol, if you want to be sure of a kill.

If you are hunting veteran Klingons in Armor, you really do need a heavier Phaser III Rifle, on average. It's my understanding, that's what they were made for.

For Joe Average klingon, A lucky high damage shot at full power with a tiny hand phaser might not kill them instantly, but will put them down enough to finish them off with a follow-on shot by Security Ensign Daffy Duck to "Give 'em the 'ole coop dee gracie, boy!" A head shot will punch their ticket, even with a hand phaser. Tougher ones, less so.

Oh, yeah, the Klingon's High pain threshold (correct me if I am wrong), means he can ignore the skill penalty for the Stunned, but even at Wounded level, he's at -3 to skills and such.

Yes?? No? Counter-examples? I'm still learning the melee system.

[LUGTrekGM]

TOS phasers, not quite as powerful, with top damage of:

Hand phaser I 16+4d6 (10 shots)
Pistol Phaser II 24+5d6 (about 16 shots)
Rifle Phaser III 30+9d6 (50 Shots)

So, looks like even in TOS, the pistol-grip phaser will do the job, set on "Kill."

[C5]

I used to do a similar calculation some time ago, when one of my players came up with the buffest possible Klingon (something like Vit 6 Str(+2) and Toughness) - fortunately he didn't play for long.
It's been a while, so I can't quite remember the outcome. I'll try to dig them when I have some time.
Also, while I agree that a tough Klingon can be killed with enough phaser power, he remains almost impervious to any punch from the average human, no matter how skilled.

But I agree with Ergi that ICON doubles the benefit of a good resistance - you have more hit points AND a better treshold to resist injury.

Two things I liked about ICON and missed in CODA were the Stun damage rule and the details on what happened when you lost one Health level. I even worked to port them to CODA.

[stule]

Thanks for the examples LUG.

I don't let Joe Blow play a Klingon with a Fitness 6, Vitality of +2. Our resident badass in our game has a Fitness 3. That's it.

Another thing I'm kinda confused on.

If our guy with the Fitness 3, were to take 30 points of damage, he would resist 3, and take 27?

Is that right?

I thought the resist was just how you calculate your wound levels?

Even if the resist lets you resists that many points of initial damage, he would be still be dead by my above example.

If i got this right, then ICON is pretty deadly. As for power gamers, I don't have any in our group, and I don't allow em. You gonna play with me, you better come up with a nice background and purpose for your character. I play for story. Trying to play Worf on steroids doesn't go over with me. I even checked the NPC's in DS9 and I thought they were a little outrageous (Especially Worf).

Average Human in my game has Stats of 2. If you got a 3, your considered pretty nice. a 4 is exceptional. a 5 is unheard of.

I like my players to have believable, playable characters. Not powergamer characters (which is why I hate 3.5e).

A Klingon with a 4 Fitness and +2 Vitality?

No prob.

A Klingon with a 5 Fitness and +2 Vitality?

I have no problem with that, if the story for him makes sense.

A Klingon with a 6+ Fitness and +2 Vitality?

There's the door. Don't let it hit you on the ass on the way out.

I use the Template as the standad for that race.

CODA is nice. I'm not arguing that. But I have to agree with LUG. ICON has that FASA feel and to be honest, CODA does feel alot like 3.5e. I made some pretty disturbing characters in CODA. Advancements are the same as levels (or quite similar to them). It's a great system, there is no denying. I just think ICON is a bit more technical for my liking.

Oh and one more thing.

Klingons should be pretty impervious to a punch of a human.

THAT"S WHY THEY ARE KLINGONS!!!!!

KA-PLA!!!!

[LUGTrekGM]

If our guy with the Fitness 3, were to take 30 points of damage, he would resist 3, and take 27?

Actually, the rules state, P. 131 TNG, "Resisting Damage: Armor" add (Fitness + Vitality). That total = Resistance to damage (then armor adds on top of that).

Then you have 7 levels of (Fitness + VItality), (armor doesn't affect these health levels) until the PC is killed.

So if your guy had fitness 3, no vitality, he'd have Resistance 3, to each wound, and 21 damage before he got killed.

So if he took 30 points, (minus 3 resistance) = 27 points, he's dead.

If he took 22 points (minus 3 resistance) he's got 19 points into him, and he's dying.

If your guy had 3 fitness + +1 Vitality edge, he'd have 4 Resistance to each shot or wound, and 7 levels X 4 HP = 28 Hit points, until he's dead.

The complaint that is being made is true, more or less that high stats add to overall amount of damage, and also resist damage.

However, it's a lot less forgiving a system in combat, than say, Twilight: 2000, where a buff guy can take a .50 cal round to the chest, and M-16 wounds tend to be scratches. Weaker / less storng and hardy characters guys can get hurt. Bad guys usually don't have much of a chance against a PC. But that system is set up to play out action films, lots of bullets flying, heores shot and keep going with bandages, tearing it up on the field of battle.

Star Trek (and Traveller and games like Morrow Project) Don't give that feel, they are set up to talk or negotiate and avoid combat because combat is very, very deadly. If combat happens, characters die. None of those systems have anything like luck points.

Well, LUG has courage points, which is a tiny factor to preserve the heroes.

Other games, like Top Secret 1st ed, and Top Secret S.I. have luck points, so that even if you are killed, you aren't by "Blowing a luck point."

D&D takes the opposite tactic, making it All about combat, with spells, potions, healing kits, magic, artifacts and piles of hit points.

Just different ways to model damage. Most systems are forgiving.

LUG, Traveller, and Battletech aren't. This is why I like and Prefer them. If you want to "wade in" to combat, you better be good, fast, and lucky.

I just prefer gritty games. The fact that LUG is Trek, makes it even better.

[C5]

Star Trek is not only about diplomacy, especially if you want to emulate TOS and its lengthy brawls. One of my major gripes with CODA is especially that there's no way, according to the rules, to knock someone out without a nerve pinch, special combat manoeuver, phaser set on stun or pummeling the guy to death. ICON handled this better in that respect.

And an average human can find it quite hard in ICON do knock out a tough character (whether that is acceptable or not is debatable - but after all, we've seen Picard knock the occasional Klingon out).

[stule]

Great points C5!

As for knocking out tough characters, I still use my Mook Rules for my NPC's so that it is possible to knock out a Klingon with one hit. As with any game I have played, I have discovered that the game sytem usually gives me 65%-80% of what I want. I usually have to come up with the rest myself in the form of house rules. I remember Twilight 2000, and it was an awesome concept, just really poor combat rules imo (kinda like RIFTS). I like ICON (and CODA but I totally agree with you on CODA) because it is made so that you talk. Getting into a fire fight in Star Trek is deadly and it is harder on the GM (IMO) because he has to be careful not to wipe out the party. Funny enough, I have found that incorporating some of my House Rules from CODA into ICON has actually made ICON more of fun. Going to play around with ICON before BSG or the new Star Wars RPG's come out (God let them do BSG right).

Thanks again for the well thought out feed back!

[LUGTrekGM]

I don't wporry about wiping out the party. I just tell them what's there, and let them deal with it, run, negotiate, fight, or die trying.

No PC has script immunity.

LUG helps me to keep that standard.

[tonyg]

The only real trick to running ICON combat is making sure that the players understand how things work, so they don't get themselves killed by reverting to "D&D mode". If the players understand that combat in ICON is dangerous, and that enemy guards and soldiers are actually skilled, the group will usually plan accordingly.

One of the toguhest encumters that I had worked up for one group was to rescue some prsioners (actually the players main charactersd who had screwed up and gotten themselves captured in the last adventure) from a Jem'har work camp.

THey players knew Jem'hadar were tough, and that the average Jem'hadar was a better fighter than the average PC. Forwarned, and will the possible chance of resucing thier regualr characters that they had played for two years on the line, my players were very clever, ambushing the Jem'hadar and wiping them out quickly and efficently. THey even set up good crossfires, traps, the works. Had people on hand to deactive the secrituy field right away, and got everyone out in under two minutes.

Amazing what they accomplished when properly firghtened and motivated into action.

[LUGTrekGM]

Yeah, very true. I have heard it many times, that players coming to Star Trek from D&D get characters smoked in short order.