GenCon Decipher-Trek Review

**Cochrane** · 09-01-2001, 12:57 AM

Of course it was, Phantom, Although I personally wouldn't mind if it weren't.

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Games... The... Final Product. These... are the books... of the Star... Trek RPG. Their five... year license. To explore... strange... new roles. To breathe... new... life into get... togethers. To bold... ly play what no... fan... has played... be... fore!

**REG** · 09-01-2001, 04:58 AM

As Don said, Star Trek isn't going d20.

Well, publicly. But I am sure there are gamers out there that will take such a product from Decipher (or earlier products from LUG or FASA) and convert it to the d20 System for their own personal use.

Of course, such actions should not be misinterpreted as protest. I'm an open-minded gamer that loves to play RPGs. Plain and Simple. I can play the game "as is" or in other rules system format.

P.S.- if Decipher do decide to make a d20 Companion Book for Star Trek in the future, then put me on pre-order.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 09-01-2001).]

**prophetsteve** · 09-01-2001, 10:07 AM

Well, publicly. But I am sure there are gamers out there that will take such a product from Decipher (or earlier products from LUG or FASA) and convert it to the d20 System for their own personal use.

And there is nothing wrong with that - heck, if Decipher decided to do the Star Trek equivalent of Deadlands d20 (a single d20 handbook coverting Trek to d20), that would be okay. I might even buy such a book.

But that ain't happening. The issue was that DecTrek has a mechanic which _vaguely_ resembles levels, at least at first glance. So everyone is getting all hot and heavy about Trek turning into D&D3e.

Granted if there was no semi-official rebuttal (as is with Enterprise) it could be reasoned that we would surmise alot. But Don and company, those actually writing the books have rebuffed the accusations and have tried to explain what these "Advancements" are about. Yet still the complaints and accuasions exist.

Now we can basically wait until November because there probably will be little in the way of tidbits for us gamers to digest.

**Anarchy Bob** · 09-01-2001, 02:46 PM

What i can't understand is why people make a difference between skill based systems and level advancement.

Like you can't have one without the other.

If ICON worked exactly like it does now but you gained the equivalent of 15 DPS every 5-6 game, all in one shot. Because you 'leveled up'... Would that mean that ICON is not a skill-based system?

Character developpement, generation and task resolution are all different aspects of a system. Just because DnD has a certain way of looking at those 3 doesn't mean that if DecTrek uses something that ressemble one part of the DnD system that DecTrek is a d20 clone.

Look at Call of Cthulhu. If you read behind the lines, it's a class based system. But it's a skills oriented system too. And there's no level system.

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Jesus saves.. and takes half damage.

**Greg Smith** · 09-01-2001, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Anarchy Bob:
What i can't understand is why people make a difference between skill based systems and level advancement.

Like you can't have one without the other.

One of my main gripes with D20 / D&D is the rigidity of classes combined with levels.

If ICON worked exactly like it does now but you gained the equivalent of 15 DPS every 5-6 game, all in one shot. Because you 'leveled up'... Would that mean that ICON is not a skill-based system?

No. But if there was little choice to the skills on which those DPs were spent, it would cease to be skill-based and become- class based.

Character developpement, generation and task resolution are all different aspects of a system. Just because DnD has a certain way of looking at those 3 doesn't mean that if DecTrek uses something that ressemble one part of the DnD system that DecTrek is a d20 clone.

Agreed. It sounds a though it is closer to D20 than Icon was, but I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it.

Look at Call of Cthulhu. If you read behind the lines, it's a class based system. But it's a skills oriented system too. And there's no level system.

I disagree with that. Cthulhu's professions are NOT classes. They provide a rough framework for starting skills, nothing more.

Classes (in the D&D sense) are much more rigidly defined. Two D20 characters with the same stats, in the same class, would have the same attack bonuses, AC, starting HP, same number of spells, etc. Two Cthulhu charcters with identical stats, in the same profession would likely be nothing alike.

I prefer my characters to have the flexibily in creation and advancement that Cthulhu and Icon provide and not be constrained by classes and levels.

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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."
Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Prophecy Girl.

**REG** · 09-01-2001, 07:41 PM

One of my main gripes with D20 / D&D is the rigidity of classes combined with levels.

But it ain't that rigid. You can always spend your skill points on cross-class skills, and there are a variety of feats that you can't simply take all of them.

No. But if there was little choice to the skills on which those DPs were spent, it would cease to be skill-based and become- class based.

It makes sense. I mean when you go to college to study law, you're not going to waste on outside program like animal husbandry. You stick with the program. If you're advancing your soldier class, then you should efficiently spend your skill points toward class skill. However, you are still allowed to take non-related skills, but it'll cost you. At least it does not restrict you. Even a fighter can take Move Silently, which was usually exclusive to the thief (now called rogue).

Agreed. It sounds a though it is closer to D20 than Icon was, but I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it.

If it is closer to d20 then it's better. Yes, time and time again, I will say this. D&D is d20 but d20 is not necessarily D&D. It is simply the core engine, not the entire game.

I disagree with that. Cthulhu's professions are NOT classes. They provide a rough framework for starting skills, nothing more.

It's about the same as class. The classes in D&D (for example) reflect their profession. Sure, we can remove those other nifty class features that you get as a reward for achieving at higher level (of course we can leave the skill point allotment alone as that is needed), but when it comes down to it, profession is similar to classes.

Classes (in the D&D sense) are much more rigidly defined. Two D20 characters with the same stats, in the same class, would have the same attack bonuses, AC, starting HP, same number of spells, etc. Two Cthulhu charcters with identical stats, in the same profession would likely be nothing alike.

Granted, they have the same attack bonus, but fighters (for example) may differ on which weapon to use (one may use rapier-and-dagger combo while another uses longsword). AC is not usually the same, since equipment can differ between the characters (one uses chainmail while another prefers leather so it won't limit his agility). Hit die is usually random after the 1st level. And starting with the same number of spell, two characters may have different spell lists.

Just because you go to the same wizard's college does not mean you're going to turn out like everyone else. You could specialize in illusion spells while a classmate will specialize in transmutation.

The same with doctors, if there is such a thing as a doctor class. You and your best friend may attend the same medical college but you may decide to become a pathologist while he decided to study neurosurgery.

I prefer my characters to have the flexibily in creation and advancement that Cthulhu and Icon provide and not be constrained by classes and levels.

I still say you can make a flexible game using the d20 System. If you want, eliminate the class/cross-class skill mechanics. Then everyone got the same chance to pick up a Sheep Shaving skill while they study Electrical Engineering.

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Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

[This message has been edited by REG (edited 09-01-2001).]

**Greg Smith** · 09-02-2001, 05:38 AM

Originally posted by REG:
It makes sense. I mean when you go to college to study law, you're not going to waste on outside program like animal husbandry. You stick with the program.

But once you're out in the world, you will probably want to diversify a little.

If you're advancing your soldier class, then you should efficiently spend your skill points toward class skill. However, you are still allowed to take non-related skills, but it'll cost you. At least it does not restrict you. Even a fighter can take Move Silently, which was usually exclusive to the thief (now called rogue).

Yes, but a fighter can't elect to improve his ability with a bow rather than his ability with a sword. And a sorceror can't elect to take more skills and less spells.

But, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Greg

"Calm may work for Locutus of Borg here, but I'm freaked and intend to stay that way."
Xander, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Prophecy Girl.

**Sho-sa Kurita** · 09-02-2001, 06:01 AM

Can anyone say "multiclass?" There you go. I knew you could do it.

Hey Don, just want to pipe up and let you and you DecTrek compadres know I'm one of the "jazzed" ones.

What we know so far sounds good to me.

- Daniel

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-- "Since the whiskey belongs to me, and it's on me, lets drink to me!"

**tonyg** · 09-02-2001, 08:46 AM

Don,

Which one of the facts did I twist or made up? It was you who stated that:

-d20 Trek was going to replace ICON Trek following the sale of LUG to WotC (Per instructions from WotC).
_ICON DUne was shelved in favor of D20 Dune (again per WotC).
-the loss of the Star Trek liscence was due to outside influences (Paramount & Decipher)

So, if I believe you, then the design team must certianly be vulnerable to decisions made by Decipher's management.

[This message has been edited by tonyg (edited 09-02-2001).]

**Captain Zymmer** · 09-02-2001, 09:05 AM

Could everyone just exhale...for the love of god this is just a game...really...I mean it isn't even out yet and already it is being argued over...whatever they have decided to do has been done, no amount of complaining or making statements about whether you will or will not buy it is going to change what it will be like...so why not wait for it to come out and then complain or praise?

Don, and everyone else who is part of this project...thank you for all the info you have given us and I for one am actually looking forward to seeing the fruits of your work.

Note this is not an attack on any one person or anyone in particular, it is just between the Venom over entreprise I hope not to see the same here over DecTrek.

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Captain Zymmer
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
http://www.usslexington.net
=-=-=-=-=-=

**prophetsteve** · 09-02-2001, 11:35 AM

Which one of the facts did I twist or made up? It was you who stated that:

Please tonyg. Lets drop it. The damage is done and a lot of people are not very pleased because of it - whether you feel you are justified or not in what you say, I ask that you just accept what happened and move on. This is going to do noone any good and will leave further bad feelings on the boards...

**aelius** · 09-02-2001, 01:41 PM

I don't see why everybody gets so worked up about it. If you like the new system then convert to it, if you don't then use the new supplements for background and convert them to the rules you are using.
My campaign is run using GURPS, but I bought all of the LUGTrek books (except the holoadventure book, I figured I could do that on my own given all my years of roleplaying before I ever heard the word Holodeck).
I expect I will buy the new books for the same reason, and convert them the same way.
And by the way, to Don and Steve and the rest I say keep 'em coming and I will keep buying.

**tonyg** · 09-02-2001, 03:38 PM

Dan,
Exactly. I agree with you 100%. But when I said that I got jumped on.

I was accused of twisting or making up facts,and that isn't the case.

**Dan Gurden** · 09-03-2001, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by tonyg:
Don,

Which one of the facts did I twist or made up? It was you who stated that:

-d20 Trek was going to replace ICON Trek following the sale of LUG to WotC (Per instructions from WotC).
_ICON DUne was shelved in favor of D20 Dune (again per WotC).
-the loss of the Star Trek liscence was due to outside influences (Paramount & Decipher)

So, if I believe you, then the design team must certianly be vulnerable to decisions made by Decipher's management.

[This message has been edited by tonyg (edited 09-02-2001).]

TonyG your above statements all relate to WOTC... So you are allowed to breath, after all Decipher and WOTC are seperate entities...

As for D20 Trek, we have also been told that Decipher has planned to create its own system. That was in the official press release when they aquired the rights, before the LUG Guys got involved.

So while, as employees, our guys may have to tow the company line, I feel sure that they have been given a fair anmount of creative freedom to develop something good.

And, at the end of the day, if you dont like the look of it, you can spend your $60 elsewhere. I doubt anyone would hold it against you!

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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

**The Andorian** · 09-06-2001, 08:10 AM

The time has come for me to become an active member of this board. No longer can I lurk on the sidelines while people malign the new Star Trek RPG...at least until it comes out : )

For those who don't know me, I am Adam Dickstein, a playtester on LUGTrek and one of the lucky freelancers who got to do a little writing for said game (see Among the Clans: The Andorian Sourcebook). Do you know what that means?! Jack! Diddley-Squat! There is no good reason you should listen to me anymore then anyone else. On the other hand, I was at GenCon where I got the low down on the system first hand...

Instead of details, I'm going to address "feel". While the game may seem on the surface to have D20 trappings, it is not D20 by a long shot. Six sided dice are used. In truth, and completely off the record, it seems more like ICON 2nd Edition then anything else. At it's core, it is an improved if slightly simplified version of the ICON system with many of the bumps smoothed out.

I must say I find it quite amazing that with the articles in Game Trade Magazine, the numbers of gamers who tried the game at GenCon and the multitude of posts on the internet, those interested in the subject still have and put forth so much misinformation and hearsay as gospel.

Take everything with a grain of salt, my own words included.

The Andorian
The Blue Boy is Back!

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