Amphibious Ships

[JALU3]

I understand that we have discussed alot of the strategy of planetary assault/defense to death in the past. However, from my understanding only one class has been desginated, in detail, as a vessel designed for "amphibious" actions. This vessel being a size 4 wyrnee class from the first Spacedock ship book, which was an overview of Starfleet Vessels. I have to wonder whether that is sufficient enough.

Would they modify already used spaceframes for amphibious capabiliy, or create new designs specific to the mission.

Either way, spaceframes that would be designed for amphibious missions would have a larger amount of the following:
Sparse Crew Quarters
Transporters
Medical Facilities
Shuttlebay Facilities.

This way they can carry the large complement of ground forces ("marines", if you wish in your universe) to conduct the assult/defense; be able to transport a larger number of marines prior to the enemy activating their transport inhibitors; increased medical facilities to provide medical care to wounded; and a sizable number of shuttles in order to deliver and evacuate personnel when transporters are not an option.

Would all that be able to fit in a size 4 vessel? Maybe if it only carries a ground forces complement the size of a 1 or 2 platoon(s) (40-80 passangers).

[Captain Otto]

You might take a look at the Yorkshire Class in SRM1 its a size 3 vessel able to carry 60 Troops.

I'm not quite sure about the concept. While it certainly makes for memorable and exciting gaming experiences. For a full fledged Invasion of a Planet with a large population you probably need Thousands of these ships (It appears that the design is used as a Trooptransportship as well). A Single Colonial Settlement is another matter though. The usefulness of these ships largely depends on the situation: If there is no way to to have the Troops beam down (thanks to inhibitors or likewise phenomenon) your best Option would be to breach the planetary defenses and try to secure key areas. If inhibitors can be turned of a more secure way to move Troops is availible. But the problem remains that the vessel depicted in SRM1 can only carry 60 troops.

Another Option would be a dedicated large Troopship with several Armored Shuttles to ferry Troops.

(This all reminds me of Star Ship Troopers.... Though Heinlein deployed his Soldiers via Capsules out of orbit )

[JALU3]

You might take a look at the Yorkshire Class in SRM1 its a size 3 vessel able to carry 60 Troops.


Another Option would be a dedicated large Troopship with several Armored Shuttles to ferry Troops.

(This all reminds me of Star Ship Troopers.... Though Heinlein deployed his Soldiers via Capsules out of orbit )

Wait . . . a size 3 vessel is the size of a runabout . . . and those had a maximum passanger capacity of 28 individuals under normal economy class conditions . . . not full battle rattle plus room for them to rest and train on intersteller distances.

[Phoenix]

A Danube is size 2, size 3 is 50-99 meters long.

I did at one time design a ship along this concept, before Spacedock. Basically resembled an Intrepid primary hull with a single top mounted nacelle, about size 5 IIRC. Sorry I cannot post it, is was lost to the great PC crash of 2001.

[Captain Otto]

There is still another vessel in store for Planetary assaults - if you take a look at the DWS Page 96 there you can find the Wyvern Class - it carries a crew of two and 30 Troops- all at size 2.
But only for short ranges (and these ships are non warp).

I also recall seeing a design with the PC game Star Trek Armada II the Iwo Jima Class (able to carry 500 Troops). It also looked somewhat like a shuttle.

[JALU3]

Both of these craft are sufficient for carrying troops to the ground . . . but not supporting such a landing. I would think something like a cross between a hospital ship and a carrier would be able to carry the size 2 & 3 vessels that would carry out the actual landings . . . troop transporters, strike "fighter" craft, "dustoff" transporters . . . and stronger then average shields.

I would think that this is a design need that has not been sufficiently meet . . . unless you modify an Akira or some other cruiser.

[Phoenix]

Agreed, there is a design void in regards to assault ships. Akira is a bad choice as it cannot land, it fits several other requirements though. The only Federation non-shuttle sized ships known to or thought to land are the Defiant, Intrepid and Ju'Day (alternate name for the Federation Raider) classes and being able to lift off again (that I know of this is).

If you are going to try and design an assault ship, I'd suggest going with size 3+. Size 2 are shuttle type objects, and not large enough to truly support serious ground operations (i.e. the DWSB's Wyvern-class).

[JALU3]

But as you can see, these vessels are really only designed for interplanetary transport . . . and not much beyond all that . . . I can see them being the V-22s or LCUs of the time period . . . but not much beyond that.

And look at the difference between the LHA/LHDs compared to that of other ships their size . . . the have to be specifically designed to be able to carryout their specific mission . . . a mission only a few nations can successfully conduct.

As for the Starship Troopers pods . . . those could easily be written up as size one vessels.

[Phoenix]

JALU3?
I'm agreeing with you... the Wyvern-class is too small for what you looking for, or did I miss something else.

[JALU3]

JALU3?
I'm agreeing with you... the Wyvern-class is too small for what you looking for, or did I miss something else.

Probably misinterpreted what you ment by "size 3+" . . . at minimum size 5 IMHO. I don't know where I got the Danube being size 3 though . . . must have been old information or something . . . furthermore if the Danube is size 2, why even bother with shuttlecraft?

But back to the the topic at hand . . .
enlarged medical capability
enlarged cargo storage capacity
increased "shuttle" space
Possible landfall & atmospheric capability

Not all amphibious ships must be able to wade "onto the beach" per say. I mean sure, the old LSTs did . . . but a LHD skipper would never dream of such a thing.

[Captain Otto]

If a large Transport is going to be able to make a planetfall, you might add other possibilities as well:

Space for support vehicles (Tanks, Skimmers etc)
Serve as a on Site HQ
Serve as a heavy armored Strong point at the Heart of a beachhead.

Another Possibility would be a Carrier like ship, that serves as home for the Troops Deployment could be achieved via Wyvern Class ships. Support could be given by well armored fighters who clear the way before the Wyverns launch their attack.

As for the Starship Troopers pods . . . those could easily be written up as size one vessels.

That was springing to my mind as I've read the novel recently. But I doubt Star Fleet would risk their valuable Personal like this.

furthermore if the Danube is size 2, why even bother with shuttle craft

I think it an economical question Shuttles are cheap compared to runabouts and most shuttle missions don't need the capabilities of a runabout.

JALU, how many troops do you think your ship should carry?

[Phoenix]

JALU, how many troops do you think your ship should carry?

Well from FASA, the only source I have for Assault ships, we have:
Federation
Continent Class IX Assault Ship: Crew- 62, Troops- 3,200
Makin Class VII Assault Ship: Crew- 38, Troops- 1,800
Klingon
T-3 (Mover) Class VI Assault Ship: Crew- 62, Troops- 800
T-5 (Throne Seeker) Class VII Assault Ship: Crew- 74/76, Troops- 1400
T-12 (Carrier of Doom) Class IX Assault Ship: Crew- 82, Troops- 2400
Romulan
Wings of Justice Class IX Assault Ship: Crew- 84, Troops- 1800
Nightwing Class VIII Assault Ship: Crew- 62, Troops- 700

My judgement would have a ship of 500-3500 depending on size desired.

[JALU3]

Well if you are following current doctorine for a MEU . . . you are looking at a group of three ships carrying anywhere between 500-750 ground forces/"Marines"/passangers each . . . this must be why all the current enlisted bunking on a current modern ship of the sea would be considered "sparce" quarters, and all but the most senior officers are in "double occupied basic" quarters.

This is above and beyond the normal crew and ship requirements.

However, even with this size of a vessel . . . one is still looking at dozens if not hundreds of ships to carry out a division size assult . . . and I honestly wouldn't even begin to attempt to look at a ground assualt against a hardened target without looking at a corps sized ground force element. I mean command of the space above the planet is essential . . . but you will always need boots on the ground.

----

The only way I can imagine a ship to carry ground force/"marines"/army personnel in any significant number is the widespread use of modular sparce quarters (this way when not needed, the space could be used for other purposes). However, in doing so the amount of recreation facilities would have to be higher in comparison to a ship that provides a significant number of its passangers and crew members basic quarters. Otherwise, unless they are provided large areas for training (such as holodecks (whcih are covered under recreation facilities)) . . . those individuals may end up being a major disciplinary issue.

Therefore, I would argue that a ship carrying a platoon worth of soldiers needs atleast a level 5 recreation rating, and with increased numbers of soldiers would come the need for even higher recreation ratings.

But that begs the question . . . how does one account for main holodecks for training purposes that are above and beyond the standard amount for a given rating?

[Captain Otto]

But that begs the question . . . how does one account for main holodecks for training purposes that are above and beyond the standard amount for a given rating?

IMHO i think you just build what you need so i would give your ship a recreation rating of 10 (so you can build as much Holodecks for training purposes which serve for recreation as well) Just remember the Recreation Table in Spacedock just gives some guidance for what could be included, so if you dont like it you change it. And if you take the Highest rating you could dedicate a whole deck to Holosystems.

However, even with this size of a vessel . . . one is still looking at dozens if not hundreds of ships to carry out a division size assult . . . and I honestly wouldn't even begin to attempt to look at a ground assualt against a hardened target without looking at a corps sized ground force element. I mean command of the space above the planet is essential . . . but you will always need boots on the ground.

I have taken a look at the DWS; Steve Long states there that the Groundforces of the entire Federation consisted of 200.000 Personel at the start of the war. And the Force was only expanded to 250.000 during the war.
(Ok, to my ears this sounds unrealistic).

Maybe with 24th century technology you dont need that many Soldiers.
If whole areas can be "prepared" for planetary Landing with Phasers set to planetary stun. Taking down large Concentartions of troops with almost no loss of live becomes an relatively easy process.

If there is no Opposition thanks to this, there is no need for large Assault ships as well.
You stun them enmasse, send some troops down to disarm them and beam the Prisoners away to large POW Camps or if availible prison ships.

(Ask me i once had this with a group of Pakleds who refused to give up a mining station they had taken over )

[JALU3]

I have finally worked on a ship designed for the role in question, which can be found here.
It is designed to carry a force of 1500 persons, which is equivalent to the ground force element of a modern day MEU. As is found aboard modern amphibious assault ships, the ship has expanded medical facilities. Compared to the write up in SRMV1 the ships medical facilities are on par with that found aboard an Olympic-class Hospital Ship, including dedicated labs for medical and life sciences; however the Olympic has more individual laboratories.
Critiques are welcomed, as I can see the parallels that the ship has with the El Dorado-class Heavy Frigate in the Dominion War Sourcebook, with the primary difference at a glance being the number of passengers carried aboard, and the number of computer core. As on Spacedock version of the El Dorado has yet been produced (that I am aware of), the ship appears to be more of a carrier based on the description then a ship designed to bring troops to a planetary assault.