What it means to be Blue.

[Thundergod]

There is very little cannonical information to support anything about the Andorians. So I spent the whole day trying to figure out what the heck an Andorian is. I mean if you are going to run one you need to know what they are about. First I went to every one and there sisters sites. conflicting is the nicest word to use to discribe the information. So then I decided to look at science. Go figure, science in Trek? So I read a great deal about Horseshoe crabs and spiders. You might ask why? Well there are two reasons. Blue skin and blue blood. There are life forms on this planet that have Blue blood. The blue is from copper based oxygen binders and is found in namely spiders and similar life forms. Mccoy mentions that Andorians need and intra muscular injections. The copper based blood ciruclates on a system that is low pressure and bathes the organs in fluids, rather than the complex systems that we use. In order for this to work there would need to be rigid sinuss through out hte body that the fluid and orgns could exist in. So Slow circulation and sinus's filled with blood through out the body in rigid structures. What are some advantages that could come from this?

[This message has been edited by Thundergod (edited 08-28-2001).]

[Phantom]

Going by one the best sourcebooks written for a game,INHO, which happens to be Among the Clans. Remember this is Trek, so keep the laughing to minimum when it comes to science.

Andorian blood is cobalt based. They have a somewhat redundant circulatory system, the first like ours has the blood transfered thru viens and arteries, carring oxygen to the parts of the body, carrying waste away, providing anti bodies, and so on, and entirely additional form of circulation, nearly everything that is carried in the blood can also "seep" through the body of an Andorian via chemically regulated osmosis. This has several advantages, particularly in combating fatigue and damage from cold- Andorians don't tire or get frost bite easily. A few problems also come from this, certain poisons will work only on Andorians, some of which are fast acting.

So, basically one system does exactly the same our circulatory systems do, while the other works as a "anti-freeze" system.

I know that the few think of the LUG material as canon, but the Andorians are my favourite race from ST, and they did a bang up job on Among the Clans so, INMHO, it is the prime source for anything Andorian.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Thundergod]

Cobalt is not an oxygen binding element. it is blue but cannot bind and de couple with O like metals such as Iron and copper can. Insects dont have blood like we do, more of a fluid that runs the length.
It cant be too cold on Andor becuae they have to be with in nominal levels with the other races or they woulnd't function well.

[Phantom]

Like I said "keep the laughing to a minimum..." It is what is stated in Among the Clans, use at own risk. If you can find the AtC it is a good buy, Andorian physiology aside, the planetary, and cultural info is quite good. Well worth it for an Andorian fan.

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In the Praetors Name!

[sidume]

They say the blood is cobalt based. Do they ever say that it carries Oxygen? Maybe they use Nitrogen for that function instead . . .

[The Andorian]

As one of the people on the project I must also agree the picking up "Among the Clans" is an excellent idea as S. John Ross and Steve Long created a fantastic world and culture for my...er...this species.

As for blood, it is listed as cobalt based in the book as well as the old' Medical Manual if I'm not mistaken. I always imagined that it either carried Nitrogen or it more of a temperature and pressure regulator and had less to do with carrying "air". I may need to do some further research. Thaks for the inspiration.

The Andorian
It's not easy being blue...

[Thundergod]

I have done a little research but I would love to hear from an expert. It is strange to imagine a humanoid with a less evolved ciruculatory system, similar to a spiders, and still looking so cool in blue.

[Phantom]

The physiology of the Andorians is one thing about them that kind of confuses me as well.
1) Blue Blood Cobalt based
2) Skeletal Structure, is more like cartiledge. Absords shock better, but when it breaks it takes longer to heal.
3) Antennae
4) They, appaently have internal "compartments" in their bodies, which no-one really knows why.

And this is one reason why I like the Andorians so much. Out of all the "main" races in ST they the most "alien"

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In the Praetors Name!

[Thundergod]

Research note....
Animals with an open cirulatory system dont have high blood pressure, and usually dont use capilaries to deliver oxygen and nutrients to the organs. Rather they have compartments with in thier bodies that hold the organs which are bathed in the blood. The blood is directly oxygenated by inline trache (open tubes into the cirulatory system as opposed to complex lungs)The blood on these life forms is usually not just blood but the totality of bodily fluids. In spiders as well as other inscets this is the case. But I dont know of any higher evloved animals with an open circulatory system, or anything with blue ( which in reality is copper based) blood. cobalt wouldn't work as a oxygen carrier, mabye they have high amounts of coblat in thier blood.

[Phantom]

Uhmmm, guys? I think we are over analyzing things here. First off they are aliens and don't have to be governed by our science, they are classed as ghelnoid (what does that mean?). Second, although alot of the science in ST is "good science" alot of it isn't. I don't think we are going to be able to figure this one out.

Just my 2 credits worth.

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In the Praetors Name!

[Phantom]

The only thinkg they really say about the blood of an Andorian, asides from being blue and carring out the same function as blood does in all organisms, is that it acts like an anti-freeze.

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In the Praetors Name!

[tonyg]

It is mention in Among the Clans than Andorians are probably some sort of hybrid creature. As such, they are not insects or humanoids. Andoria is a world that looks like an abadoned experiment-of Dr. Moreau.

Even thier medical practicioners seem to have doubts about how they actually function.

[This message has been edited by tonyg (edited 09-06-2001).]

[Aldaron]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phantom:
Uhmmm, guys? I think we are over analyzing things here. First off they are aliens and don't have to be governed by our science, they are classed as ghelnoid (what does that mean?). Second, although alot of the science in ST is "good science" alot of it isn't. I don't think we are going to be able to figure this one out.

Just my 2 credits worth.

</font>

I think Phantom has an excellent point here - especially about the "good science" bit. Whilst very shaky at times, I think the TNG-era and beyond had relatively good science.

Andorians are a TOS creation, however - and TOS was certainly not noted for its scientific scholarship!

I just watched the episode last night where they went back to Earth in 1967 (can't remember the title, off-hand). In it, Spock is talking about sling-shotting back to the 23rd century by using the sun's "magnetic field".

Magnetic field?? A show which is pretty good scientifically does not confused magnetic fields with gravity wells!

Mind you, the concepts in this one were atrocious, as well - like beaming Christopher back into his fighter prior to everything that happened and having that magically wipe his memories. Or somehow beaming anyone from somewhere between the Earth and the sun...*sigh*

Just another reason I generally can't stand TOS...

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"Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of ancient stars - it is our destiny to return home..."

[Captain Blake]

AFAIR, Cobalt does form oxides, just like Copper and Iron. It's just not as good at it.

The Iron in our blood is in the form of Hemoglobin, which is a folded protein containing a iron porphyrin ring structure.

The porphyrin ring structure holds the oxygen, and exchanges it for the carbon dioxide. As a note, the secondary and tertiary folding of the protein causes the activation energy of the binding to be similar, which is why the process works. Basically, the folding of the protein shields the iron to a degree, preventing it from binding to the oxygen in a way that won't allow for the transfer.

I knew a professor who did a hypothetical copper porphyrin ring model, which looked like it might actually work. (he was a Vulcan wonk). The Copper-Hemoglobin protein folding would be much different in order for this molecule to work as an oxygen carrier, since copper has a lower affinity for oxygen than iron does.

I'm wondering if a modified cobalt porphyrin ring structure would work as an alternate transport mechanism too. IIRC, cobalt has less affinity for oxygen than copper, so the protein structure would be folded differently. However, Cobalt may not have a high enough affinity to work.

Sigh. I definately don't have the resources to do that calculation, or even see if the cobalt hemoglobin analog could exist.

If it wouldn't work, and it may not, then the Cobalt may well just be a mineral that exists in their blood stream. Perhaps the antifreeze concept.

Alex

[tonyg]

Aldaron,

Actually TOS was better researched and ususally put greater emphasis on "good science" than the series that followed.

It just that what was good science in 1965 isn't good science in 2001. And science always took a back seat to story considerations.

BTW- Technically, there is a relationship between magnetic fields and gravity fields. A ship could use an magenetic field as a viable way to increase velocity, especially one using an ion propustion system. Woundn't let you time travel as in TREK, but then nothing else does either (Thats why we call it a TC show).