UFP Civil War

[Commander Ramey]

Just wondering if anyone had tried this in Next Generation time or beyond. Nothing major, but a small amount of planets breaking away and a group of starfleet captains and crews doing so with them. Has anyone tried it? Came up with a good story why? I'm thinking there are plenty of reasons post or even during the DW...

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Like?

[Eric R.]

How about a growing UFP government becoming more centralized and intruding on what many members consider there "planetary rights".

[The Tatterdemalion King]

How about a growing UFP government becoming more centralized and intruding on what many members consider there "planetary rights".

Hilariously, the conflict could not be between the centralized gov't and the external members, but between people who believe that the offending planets should remain within the union to be remolded and those who think they should be kicked out.

Just what these offenses would be, I don't know.

[black campbellq]

We're doing something similar. Not quite a civil war, but the elements are all there:

25th C. The leisure class -- those that don't do anything but attend adult education classes and write execrable poetry (we're all artists...how civilized!) -- has become so widespread that there's very few people doing work, research, or anything of real use. The population is collapsing throughout the Federation because people don't want the responsibility of having children (with the notable exception of the new members -- Romulans and Cardassians.)

Starfleet is the refuge of the ambitious, talented, motivated. It is also slowly being dominated by machine intelligence (which started showing up in our post-DS9/Voyager period campaign.) Planetary computers run pretty much everything day-to-day, but they have no representation in the Council. Starships have been gaining experience and have climbed through the ranks so that many are now their own captains. Androids are common, and many go into Starfleet. They "breed" faster than the biologicals; combining their experiences and thoughts to create new, unique "children." Some have had their children with biologicals, and these androids are often highly creative, as well as intelligent.

Even for the creme de la creme of the biological world, android competition is seemingly closing opportunities for people. It's not actually true, since Starfleet is growing rapidly, and still not quickly enough to cover the expansion. From the Carina to the Perseus Arm, there are UFP outposts. It's huge and the political control from the center is unresponsive, often skittish about conflict, and highly political. The Orion Arm Treaty that bound the Romulan Empire, Klingon Alliance (the Empire is a hostile force), and the Cardassian Union to the UFP had one down side -- to get the deal through, the president at the time had to cut a federalist system, giving those units a certain level of autonomy.

The friction between small worlds like Deneb and the UFP, between the big "states" like the Alliance and Romulans, and flare-ups of internecine war between members (Antica and Selay, most recently), is steadily showing the cracks in the UFP facade. The biologicals are getting tired of the perception that machines are running everything; machines are getting tired of having to step up to run everything, yet have not real representation in the government.

Nothing's popped yet, but the tension level is high.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

We're doing something similar. Not quite a civil war, but the elements are all there:

25th C. The leisure class -- those that don't do anything but attend adult education classes and write execrable poetry (we're all artists...how civilized!) -- has become so widespread that there's very few people doing work, research, or anything of real use. The population is collapsing throughout the Federation because people don't want the responsibility of having children (with the notable exception of the new members -- Romulans and Cardassians.)

The thing that bugs me about this is that there's not really any canon evidence of a liesure class like this existing in the Federation. Granted, we don't have a lot of hard information on their economy, but it all sounds suspiciously 20th century consumerist to me.

[Jem'hadar]

Just wondering if anyone had tried this in Next Generation time or beyond. Nothing major, but a small amount of planets breaking away and a group of starfleet captains and crews doing so with them. Has anyone tried it? Came up with a good story why? I'm thinking there are plenty of reasons post or even during the DW...

My first question would be is it illegal for a world to secede from the Federation? I have never seen any canon or non-canon information that suggets secession from the Federation is illegal. But I could be wrong.

It does not seem illegal for Starfleet officers to resign. We've seen that before on TNG & DS9. But it would be illegal for Starfleet personnel to steal a Starfleet vessel.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

My first question would be is it illegal for a world to secede from the Federation? I have never seen any canon or non-canon information that suggets secession from the Federation is illegal. But I could be wrong.

It'd be concerning, because (to the federation, at least) their reasons for doing so would seem suspect. Why wouldn't you want economic and social benefits to maintain a healthy standard of living for your populace? Is the planet's government dealing with dangerous technology? Etc etc.

But I doubt removing yourself from the UFP would be technically 'illegal.' Complicated, surely, and I doubt the Federation would accept the decision as the will of the people without a democratic planetwide referrendum on the subject. The VIM, for example, is an illegal organization not for it's goals, but because it uses extreme measures in the hope of achieving a widely unpopular goal.

[Commander Ramey]

Perhaps a group of citizens who felt that the Federation should have been more aggressive in the war, and the days leading up to it. That would put them at odds with the council. And the Federation wouldn't fight to keep them in I don't think - but this group might fight them to try to come back and change the Federation.

[black campbellq]

The thing that bugs me about this is that there's not really any canon evidence of a liesure class like this existing in the Federation. Granted, we don't have a lot of hard information on their economy, but it all sounds suspiciously 20th century consumerist to me.

Completely the opposite. You don't have to have a consumption based economy with the replicators -- that was Roddenberry's idea. Without the need to work for food, housing, medical care, education -- it seems pretty implicit that it's all provided -- there is zero need to work. You run a restaurant because you want to cook and feed people, you play sports because you want to play sports, you sit on your ass and watch entertainment all day because you don't have to do anything. The leisure class idea is one I se arising because there's no artificial scarcity, no real competition, no sense of purpose.

I see a society of "artists" (in only the mos technical of terms) where a lot of people spend their time turning out awful poetry, novels, paintings, sculpture...because they aren't required to work. some would see that as a paradise -- critics would most likely disagree strongly. (I base this on the massive loads o' "art" [read: crap] on the internet.)

My take on the Federation is mostly based on what they don't tell us in the shows. DS9 is the only series that even attempted to show life in the Federation. This, to my mind, is the most glaring weakness in the programs. The most telling line is about how in the Core Worlds, people live in paradise and cannot comprehend what life is like on the frontier. That begs the question...if it's so great, why would anyone emigrate to a crappy colony world? The only answer I can truly come up with that works is: people want to DO something. Build a society that is different. (Much like the early eps of TOS seemed to suggest -- there were a lot of colonies not happy to see Big-E pull into orbit.)

I would think a lot of the colony worlds are micro-societies openly railing against the homogeneity of Federation life. Scottish worlds like Caldos, Andorian colonies where dueling is the norm, Polynesian island villages on Pacifica. Places where you have to work, build, breed, and be human (or whatever race), instead of a content citizen full of self-entitlement. It's a beautiful place, the Federation...especially if you're lazy or unmotivated.

I'll admit freely that I think a certain level of want and need is good for the soul.

I could see Starfleet feeling very superior. They do the science, build the technology, explore the galaxy, keep all these soft civies safe. Hell, even the series show Starfleet as pretty cushy (save for TOS, perhaps.) They live well, have a lot of influence in the government. It's fascism, without the coercion and violence. In our campaign, a lot of the tension is between the politicians and the fleet...who really is in charge? Who deserves to be in charge?

As for whether seccession would be allowed, in our game, it's not defined -- just as it was not in the US Constitution. Bureaucracy, however, abhors losing power and influence...I don't think the UFP would openly deny withdrawal from the Federation, but I suspect they would go to all manner of dirty tricks to prevent it. If anything, I could see them using expulsion as a major threat. Which doesn't work if you want to be expelled.

The problem with just allowing worlds to join is they can use it to bootstrap their techologies and economies, then bail once they've reached a level where they feel comfortable enough to stand on their own. Suddenly, you've got competition on your doorstep with a good handle on your tech, doctrine, politics. If they offer a "change", you could find yourself facing a lot of your member worlds.

But, that's my take. I'm sure others will disagree.

[Commander Sonek]

When I was still running FASA Trek, I came up with an idea that I got after reading Tom Clancy's Patriot Games.

I was basically trying to set up the events in Star Trek VI.

I borrowed the Keep Earth Human League from the Star Trek Novel Sarek, a human-centric group of racial purists. Then I added a group called The Legion, a terrorist splinter group that was launching unprovoked attacks on worlds that had been ceded from the Federation to the Klingons under the terms of the Organian Peace Treaty.

After a skirmish with the Legion ship launching the attacks, a Miranda class ship equipped with a cloak, my group decided to go after the group directly and infiltrate it to cut the head off the beast. At that point, it became almost like Star Trek: Alias (this years before Alias premiered!).

If my players had not taken the path that they took, I could have seen the KEHL eventually striking off on their own to colonize their own little cluster "confederation" of 3-4 worlds, their own little humanist pure utopia. I think the Federation would have been happy to see them go.

I even thought the whole storyline gave Kirk's Line to Spock in Star Trek VI an added subtext when he tells him, "Everyone's human!" : he has realized that his attitudes were closer to the Keep Earth Human League racists than he was willing to admit; he rejects the attitude by embracing the idea that everyone is alike, regardless of species.

[JALU3]

I even thought the whole storyline gave Kirk's Line to Spock in Star Trek VI an added subtext when he tells him, "Everyone's human!" : he has realized that his attitudes were closer to the Keep Earth Human League racists than he was willing to admit; he rejects the attitude by embracing the idea that everyone is alike, regardless of species.

Although this is slightly political . . . we have not really seen a hyphinated Trek . . . it is very much a melting pot . . . as individual planetary society becomes less recognizable from the "McDonaldisation" of the intersteller society . . . seperation through racial/species based ideas become less likely.

It's just as Quark said to Elem. It's like root beer, and its close cousin Dr. Pepper.

[Hugh Casey]

I can certainly see some conflict building from the DW, as some want to see the Federation returning to a pre-war, peaceful-exploration and diplomacy footing, and others wanting a more militaristic policy to prevent something like the DW from happening again.

I can see Earth and Betazed fall squarely into the pro-martial camp (after all, THEY were both attacked during the war, and Betazed was actually OCCUPIED... that's gonna leave some scars), with Vulcan and some of the other worlds faulling into the diplomatic camp.

And then the different factions of the Federation Council begin fighting over policy. And the majority in the Council would of course be on the opposite side of the fence from the Federation President. More confilct.

Powderkeg assembled... apply flame! INSTANT WAR!

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Completely the opposite. You don't have to have a consumption based economy with the replicators -- that was Roddenberry's idea. Without the need to work for food, housing, medical care, education -- it seems pretty implicit that it's all provided -- there is zero need to work. You run a restaurant because you want to cook and feed people, you play sports because you want to play sports, you sit on your ass and watch entertainment all day because you don't have to do anything. The leisure class idea is one I se arising because there's no artificial scarcity, no real competition, no sense of purpose.

Notice there's no TV. Being entertained would basically consist of going to see plays or reading literature (not just books, lit) all the time–and how many entertainment credits do you actually get per day?

I'm skeptical about the idea that it's literally free. I'm sure the basics are provided, and poverty isn't extant, but the idea that everyone can sit on their ass 24-7 sounds classist in a distinctly prescarcity way. You know of course everyone wants to act like the idle rich and lounge around. Because working sucks, or something–but why isn't repairing plumbing considered an art in your schema? Why isn't structural maintenance or cleaning shit considered art? Is there an internet? At least, one as we know? There's a news service that does some publishing, but aside from actually handing out your novel yourself, who's going to distribute it to people?

Colonies and such do seem to be more labour-intensive than the core worlds, and the comparative societal freedom is much greater–I can't see fans of market economies or non-communistic thinking liking the core worlds. But the replicators don't fix themselves. They don't design themselves. The scientists on the show–Gideon Seyetik, the guy from the nanite episode, that snobby dude from the voyager episode–act more like arrogant rock stars than anyone else. Stafleet is a bunch of knuckle-draggers compared to their glistening genius. Daystrom was the nicest of the bunch. It's a quasi-whiffle economy, I'd suspect.

I think you're just thinking 'if you were provided everything you want right now, what would it be like?' instead of positing that they actually think about work, art, entertainment, labour and self-improvement differently than we do. The difference is not merely physically technological, but socially technological as well.

I'll admit freely that I think a certain level of want and need is good for the soul.

I'll do you one further and claim that want and need are intrinsic to the soul. No matter how paradisical Earth may be, living your life entirely through mediated realities is a sign of sickness. Consumerism is a mental deficiency, and if 24th century humanity has overcome all the other tribalism and petty cultural shit that plagues us now, consumerism must go too.

[C5]

Somehow this reminds me of the scene in Back to the Future 3, where a seemingly drunken Doc explains to incredulous far-west folks that people will jog for fun in the future.
And I could add numerous examples of what used to be considered as work some centuries ago and are now entertainment (sailing and skiing come to mind - I'm sure the 16th century sailors would be a bit perplexed when learning that 4 centuries later sailors would sail around the globe without shipping any merchandise not carrying any cannon ).

Maybe, as Tatterdemalion King explains, a lot of what we now consider to be hard labour have turned into light entertainement or hobby in the UFP (I particularly like the comparison of scientists to rock stars).

Anyway, I tend to agree more with this point of view than black campbellq's. Enough off topic now.

I thinkg a UFP civil war could simply occur if old grudges were to suddenly resurface in many core worlds at once. Let's suppose that the VIM suddenly becomes more influent on Vulcan, while at the same time traditionalists take power on Andor and bring back the topic of the Vulcan/Andor war that used to be during Enterprise's time, and we could suddenly have a very high tension between two major worlds of the UFP. Add other members taking sides instead of trying to calm things down, and nasty events are ready to occur...

(BTW, this could all well be a Romulan or whichever species plot to divide the UFP from inside - or even a section 31 plot to enforce the UFP by putting it through a bloody civil war...)