UFP Civil War

[The Tatterdemalion King]

The real question is what would it take for it to become a shooting war, as opposed to stuff like endless complex negotiations.

Additionally, Starfleet could probably bring any individual member world (or ex-member world) to heel through force, but if that happens, the Federation ceases being the Federation...

[Jem'hadar]

[QUOTE=But I doubt removing yourself from the UFP would be technically 'illegal.' Complicated, surely, and I doubt the Federation would accept the decision as the will of the people without a democratic planetwide referrendum on the subject. The VIM, for example, is an illegal organization not for it's goals, but because it uses extreme measures in the hope of achieving a widely unpopular goal.[/QUOTE]

I agree that if world wanted to secede from the Federation, the Federation would be concerned & try to persuade the world not to.

I also agree that if an illegal group or a small minority usurped power on a world & then tried to secede, the Federation would use force, if necessary, to restore the democratically-elected govt of that world & prevent this illegal secession.

Of course, that also begs the question, are all worlds in the Federation democratically-elected? Is democracy a pre-requisite to Federation membership?

Nevertheless, the consensus seems to be that secession per se from the Federation is not illegal, assuming the lawful govt of that world & the majority of the population approved of it.

So in such a scenario, if one or a group of planets decided to secede, it would not lead to a civil war b/c the Federation has no legal power to force worlds to remain in the Federation.

As to the discussion on what Federation citizens do all day when they don't have to work for a living, the theory proposed in the TV shows never made much sense to me. The only way I could understand it is that people have evolved so much that they aren't lazy, stupid or even just plain bums.

People in the 24th Cent. work b/c they love working, even if they don't get paid for it & can live off replicators & holosuites for the rest of their lives.

But who does the menial work? Who cleans the corridors of Federation/Starfleet buildings? Who does contruction, not the design & management of a contruction team, but the actual, hands-dirty work? Who spends their day flying shuttles from Earth to Mars & back again? We don't see many robots in Star Trek, so who's doing all the grunge work that most people don't want to do & would only day if paid & b/c they can't get a better job?

[Hugh Casey]

I guess the question is, who'd win UFP Civil War... Iron Man or Captain America?

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Of course, that also begs the question, are all worlds in the Federation democratically-elected? Is democracy a pre-requisite to Federation membership?

Yes.

As to the discussion on what Federation citizens do all day when they don't have to work for a living, the theory proposed in the TV shows never made much sense to me. The only way I could understand it is that people have evolved so much that they aren't lazy, stupid or even just plain bums.

People in the 24th Cent. work b/c they love working, even if they don't get paid for it & can live off replicators & holosuites for the rest of their lives.

I sincerely doubt that they actually are going to give you enough replicator credits to eat every damn time you get bored. Same with holodecks–maybe an hour or two every day tops, and even then the local psychiatrist will start asking questions.

But who does the menial work? Who cleans the corridors of Federation/Starfleet buildings? Who does contruction, not the design & management of a contruction team, but the actual, hands-dirty work? Who spends their day flying shuttles from Earth to Mars & back again? We don't see many robots in Star Trek, so who's doing all the grunge work that most people don't want to do & would only day if paid & b/c they can't get a better job?

What's wrong with being a taxi driver? What's wrong with being a janitor, or a welder, or a dude who cleans hats or whatever? You're displaying totally classist thinking here. I imagine maintenance workers and the like are considered 'indoor gardeners.' Sure, you get your hands dirty, but it's towards the end of keeping everything harmonious and aesthetically pleasing.

[black campbellq]

There's no canon answer on whether all the governments are democratic. In fact, there's some good on-screen evidence that it may not be the case, outsie of human worlds. The very hierarchal nature of Vulcan society suggests to me it would be a meritocracy. There are still "royal" families on Betazed -- the Great Houses. They seem deeply tied to the government. The Trill Symbiote Commission seem highly unlikely to be elected.

As for classist thinking...funnily enough, I doubt most people on this board are dreaming of a career in office hygeine maintenance. Not because it's beneath them, but because its boring, labor-intensive, and not rewarding if there's no remuneration. If anything, the Federation society is populated by Roomba and their decendents. Even where class distinctions are small, there's status. No one's going to be wowwed that you're a gardener. They'll be wowwed if you're a scientist, politician (though, for my part, I couldn't understand why...the gardners infinitely more useful), or a starship captain.

[C5]

As for classist thinking...funnily enough, I doubt most people on this board are dreaming of a career in office hygeine maintenance. Not because it's beneath them, but because its boring, labor-intensive, and not rewarding if there's no remuneration.

Don't forget that standards can change, and that what is considered hard labor in a time can become a sporty hobby some centuries later. And there already are some people out there who enjoy cleaning their house or washing their dishes. Of course, I doubt that garbage collecting can appeal to anyone, but who knows what one can find funny when there's nothing else you're forced to do ?

[The Tatterdemalion King]

As for classist thinking...funnily enough, I doubt most people on this board are dreaming of a career in office hygeine maintenance. Not because it's beneath them, but because its boring, labor-intensive, and not rewarding if there's no remuneration.

Obviously you're not much of a neat-freak.

There's a limited amount of scientific, political and captaining positions to go around. If anything, it's an occupational economy–your merit by social esteem is what gets you government grants.

There's no canon answer on whether all the governments are democratic. In fact, there's some good on-screen evidence that it may not be the case, outsie of human worlds. The very hierarchal nature of Vulcan society suggests to me it would be a meritocracy. There are still "royal" families on Betazed -- the Great Houses. They seem deeply tied to the government. The Trill Symbiote Commission seem highly unlikely to be elected.

Well, the post-High Command Vulcan has ministers and stuff, which sounds democratic (as opposed to 'administrator'). The royal houses of Betazed are never mentioned to be actually running the planet (in a situation like Britain, I imagine), and the Symbiosis Commission is definitely not the planetary government–it seems more like a secular church of the symbionts, if anything. Given that non-quasidemocratic governments would essentially form an ogliarchy of rulers vs. a politically powerless underclass, and that caste systems are expressly forbidden in the Federation charter, we can assume that democracy, certain types of meritocracy and anarcho-socialism (maybe anarcho-capitalism, possibly) are the range of options (expressible in our political jargon) for Federation member worlds to use as governance.

[WarriorKnight]

I guess the question is, who'd win UFP Civil War... Iron Man or Captain America?

Neither

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Neither

Batman : P

[First of Two]

Punisher.

[Hugh Casey]

Neither

Or at least, certainly not the readers.

[black campbellq]

If anything, it's an occupational economy–your merit by social esteem is what gets you government grants.



...are expressly forbidden in the Federation charter, we can assume that democracy, certain types of meritocracy and anarcho-socialism (maybe anarcho-capitalism, possibly) are the range of options (expressible in our political jargon) for Federation member worlds to use as governance.

I'd agree on the first point...meaning there's still "betters" -- and I'd bet they'd be mostly politicians...the lowest form of life. Or Starfleet.

Don't seem to remember the shows expressly saying you had to be a democracy or not have a class system, but I don't spend all my time pouring over the eps, so I could have missed something.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I'd agree on the first point...meaning there's still "betters" -- and I'd bet they'd be mostly politicians...the lowest form of life. Or Starfleet.

Don't seem to remember the shows expressly saying you had to be a democracy or not have a class system, but I don't spend all my time pouring over the eps, so I could have missed something.

Federation charter. Specifically, In 2372, Benjamin Sisko pointed out to Akorem Laan that if Akorem, as emissary, guided the people of Bajor towards using the d'jarra caste system, it would prevent them from joining the Federation, as "caste-based discrimination goes against the Federation Charter". (DS9: "Accession")

[Commander Sonek]

When I originally watched the whole Maqui storyline developing on Star Trek Next Gen and DS9, I remember thinking that Civil War was indeed where it was heading. Then the Dominion / Cardassian Alliance came about, and the entire situation was kind of defused.

I imagine amnesty was granted to Maqui supporters in the wake of the Dominion War, and the Maqui got the satisfaction of saying, "See? We told you!!"

[black campbellq]

Federation charter. Specifically, In 2372, Benjamin Sisko pointed out to Akorem Laan that if Akorem, as emissary, guided the people of Bajor towards using the d'jarra caste system, it would prevent them from joining the Federation, as "caste-based discrimination goes against the Federation Charter". (DS9: "Accession")

I concede.