"Possible Trek Ground Forces"

[Eric R.]

I can't believe I am about to try this . . . Coughs outload and places neck on block while closing eyes.

I think alot of people her want a place to discuss Ground Forces and ground combat in Trek. Now as most times these fall apart into the great Marine Debate I want to preface this thread with "GROUND RULES" (No pun intended.

1.) If you are a person who has fundamantal beleiefs that no ground force, marines or otherwise exist in Star Trek nor are they consistent with Star Trek as the great bird envisioned it I ask you to refrain from posting your beliefs Obviously this is a subject your not interested in and your opions have been stated and restated in countless post. So please don't interfear with thoe who want to talk about the subject for their benefit.

2.) Those who believe in marines and those who believe in Ground forces please just get on with the subject, ignore the word marine when someone mentions marines and not get in volved in the endless debate on marines.

3.) Please feel free to debate the nature of Ground warfare in Trek, post game information and Ideas and make this a place where those of us which like to discuss the subject can enjoy. Ignore any postings which seek to start the old feud up and just get on with it!

Now with that said on with the show . . .

[Eric R.]

I started this thread in response to Michael B. response to a post of mine earlier.

One never stops learning. I must admit that given the USMC hymn the legend started earlier (Mexico or Cuba)

Actually that was were they had erned the reputaion as intervention forces the Marine Mythos as it has come to be began with the Battle of Belleau Wood in France in 1918 and was fully built in World War II. The marines had stayed a very small force through out the 19th Century never being more than 3,500 strong during the Civil War compare to a Army which recruited 1.5 million men and a navy with 600,000.

Never owned/played FASA trek so I don't know about the Four Year War. My Trek expirience are some parts of TOS (Tribbles, Patterns of Force), most of TNG/DS9 and small doses of Voyager. Plus about 75% of LUG-Trek source material. Can you give a brief information about it?

Four Years War 2239 - 2243 war fought at the end of the period called the Klingon Wars (2223 - 2243) Begun as an attempt by Klingon forces to gain the strategicly important world of Axanar. Developed into a full scale invasion of the United Federation of Planets with several important colonies occupied. The invasion was stoped militarily but both sides where unable to gain any advantage at the end of the conflict. Notable battles: 1st & 2 nd Battles of Axanar, Donatu V

May I suggest a topic like "Possible Trek Ground Forces (cannon ignored)" were we gather Information about a ground force (unnammed) and some ground defence systems (Unless the DWS has data on this)?

While we have started lets hope the thread last!

[Morden]

The "Marines" or Not "Marines" debate-

Okay. I must state that any discussion of Ground Forces in my Trek games is going to contain occurrances of the word "marine". Note that this is "marine" not "Marine". By that I mean that in the paradigm which we use, there are troops carried by starships and dropped off to do the fighting, these troops fall under the jurisdiction of Starfleet and by definition are "marines". The Ground Forces, on the other hand, are much as Eric R. described, raised locally and funded locally for the defense of their home system.

While I will not debate the need to avoid endless discussion weaving elements of the USMC into the SFMC (or whatever you choose to call it) ignoring the difference between "marines" and "ground forces" in general blurrs the use and intent of the ship-carried forces.

Not trying to start a flame war, but I felt the distinction between "marines" and those who think that the M-word immediately means the USMC, needed to be made.

CAPT Morden
USS Ark Angel

No Marines Were Injured During The Writing Of This Post.

[Eric R.]

Micheal, your outline shows you have given good thought to this.

I think first we have to address what role does the Ground Forces play and were does the distinction occur between those ground force that are apart of the regular Planetary Defense Forces and those belonging to the Federation?

The manner in the way you discribed your ground forces I would be more tended to think that they are the ground forces belonging to Planetary Defense forces rather than a Federation wide force as;

1.) possesing little to no warp transport inherent they will be totally defensive in nature akin to Germanys Hemitshultze Brigades (Sp?) which ware in essence leg Infantry Divisions.

2.) If war were to come in which they would have to be moved to defened important areas they would require a large amount of training to get them ready for combat.

The Federation would need a ground force capable of moving quickly into an area either for relief or military needs. Thus the Federation forces would be more like the territorial brigades with some hitting power backing them up.

There is no doubt in my mind the Federation would keep a three tiered Ground force based on the Small Active Force which would be stationed on the frontier or on Ship, an active Reserve (like the US National Guard, Various European Territorial Armies) and a Home style Army (Militia) dedicated to defense of the world it is raised on soley.

Arming and manning levels would tend to be sporadic, units on Andoria and Andorian Colonies being over strength Vulcan ones being understrength for example.

Ontop of this is the concept of an Expandable army with moblization plans to raise numerous volunteer units in times of war. Here would be the strength of the ground force not in what strength it has in peacetime but the capability in Wartime to grow ten fold from its small almost non-existent size.

[SIR SIG]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:

Basics:

I assume Ground Forces are planetary defence units with the non-officers often raised and trained localy. They operate on habitable / marginal habitable planets, manning defensive phaser emplacements and providing mobile forces against enemy landings. Most of the time the beeings will work in disaster reliev, construction and as SAR-forces.

* Sounds akin to army reserves or Coast guard (assumption may be wrong, I'm not US ).
When not 'active' they're the locals on patrol, helping out the civilians in natural diasters etc.

The duties of boarding / searching ships, (honor) guard of higher officers, ship/starbase security etc. are left to StarFleet security personel. Hostage rescue etc. is left to SF RapidResponse Teams.

* Perhaps even interdiction crew, but then they'd need ships

b) Uniform and Equipment

The GF has no warp capable ships and forces are transported by civilian ships in peacetime (something like the civilian reserve fleet of the US?)

It has some impulse shuttles, mostly for courier duty, and some impuls fighters (an athmospheric / near orbit fighter makes not much sense in Trek). Aside from that the forces are relatively limited in their mobility, reling on pre-deployment and long warning times.

* If they are to deploy across the federation then they really need their own warp ships or at least dedicated SF 'carriers' crewed by SF that 'air lift' the GF to where they need to go.

Vehicles are either wheeled with some all terrain features (like the LAV, the Fox, Luchs etc) or using grav technologie. The vehicle weapons are energy based with some projectile systems (missiles?) added for backup. They will posses shields. Some deployment is done by using transporters (cargo for vehicles, personel for crew/infantry)

* Again could civilian ships handle this amount of equipment? Perhaps the GF have their impusle ships akin to dropships from Battletech which then hook up with a warp ship 'jump ship'.

Open points / questions:

Can a Trek Energy field be erected over a city (similar to Langston field cupolas in "The moat around Murchensons Eye")?

* Thats either a hell of a lot of shield generators or no.

Will artillery exist in this forces?

* There would still be some need but a lot of the assault would be orbital.

What about grav tanks a la "Hammers Slammers" (okay it's AirCushion there) and "Renegade Legion".

* I'm all for Grav Tanks and such

How strong are vehicle shields (I don't think the portable shields are as strong as starship ones)

* Would they have shields?

Michael

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator

[Eric R.]

As some migt already know I started an E-group at Yahoo for this subject so that we all can get the stuf we want. Click here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GFOUFP

Hopefully See ya all there.

Micheal, as you didn't post your E-mail I couldn't send you an invite direct so please go over and register and I will approve you right away.

[Michael Brinkhues]

Okay, since I am partially to blame for this here are my 2 pfennig (1 euro-cent) and some initial seeds:

Basics:

I assume Ground Forces are planetary defence units with the non-officers often raised and trained localy. They operate on habitable / marginal habitable planets, manning defensive phaser emplacements and providing mobile forces against enemy landings. Most of the time the beeings will work in disaster reliev, construction and as SAR-forces.

The duties of boarding / searching ships, (honor) guard of higher officers, ship/starbase security etc. are left to StarFleet security personel. Hostage rescue etc. is left to SF RapidResponse Teams.


a) Chain of command / headquaters

The Ground forces (GF) have a seperate chain of command from (SF) complete with their own headquaters. This decision was made so that SF can operate as an explorer/space defence unit without any forces that can be deemed possible occupation forces. There are is no military officer commanding both units. A coordinating staff exists

The Headquaters as well as the main academy compound is in Moskow at the site of the former Frunze military academy. Additional training stations are in South America (jungle), Mandschuria (cold weather), Germany (mountain) and Marokko (Desert).

b) Uniform and Equipment

The GF has no warp capable ships and forces are transported by civilian ships in peacetime (something like the civilian reserve fleet of the US?)

It has some impulse shuttles, mostly for courier duty, and some impuls fighters (an athmospheric / near orbit fighter makes not much sense in Trek). Aside from that the forces are relatively limited in their mobility, reling on pre-deployment and long warning times.

Vehicles are either wheeled with some all terrain features (like the LAV, the Fox, Luchs etc) or using grav technologie. The vehicle weapons are energy based with some projectile systems (missiles?) added for backup. They will posses shields. Some deployment is done by using transporters (cargo for vehicles, personel for crew/infantry)

Typical personal weapons are Phaser rifles for everyone, some grenade launchers and a few photon mortars. Heavier infantry weapons may be issued as necessary.

Field Uniforms are more like SeaQuest 2nd series uniforms with massiv boots, build in load bearing frames and a limited camo option. (Not adaptiv, just a number of selectable patterns). Sealable against NBC weapons with full helmet (Low Light, radio etc). Armor will be worn in combat situations.

Dress uniforms are either non existent or seldom used (In 15 month I carried my dress uniform exactly 5 times in the Bundeswehr. And I was Staff!) If they exist, they look unoffensive and easily overlooked (I like the british WWII style stuff or USAAF uniforms)

c) Bases / Installations

On most Federation planets the bases will be rather "out in the woods" since the average UFP citizen is not to fond of military units in his/her/its backyard. The bases consist of troop housing and supply depots, mostly build below ground. They posses a number of large scale transporter systems to deploy troops on a planetary scale.

Most defence installations (Phaser batteries, Planetary Aerospace Defence Missiles, Sensor phalanxes) will also be places some distance from population centers to prevent an attack on the installation from destroying the city.

d) Training

I'd go with the cold war german Bundeswehr program. Every GF member is a trained infantry-beeing. No matter wether officer or enlisted, staff, maintenance or real leg infantry.

After initial training (6 weeks) the units specialise with an additional 6-12 weeks of training. After that troops can experience a small scale (company / batallion level) exercise every 3 month, large scale ones once per year.

Troops will rotate all over the planet on a 2-3 years intervall to get familiar with all the possible combat environments. Given the transport technologies this normaly does not affect the families.

e) Off planet deployment

Almost unhear off. Since the GF lacks any orbital assault capabilities, they can only land on a (relatively) secure planet. Given that their training will be somewhat planet-specific (officers excluded) they do not cope that well with another environment.


Open points / questions:

Can a Trek Energy field be erected over a city (similar to Langston field cupolas in "The moat around Murchensons Eye")?

Will artillery exist in this forces?

What about grav tanks a la "Hammers Slammers" (okay it's AirCushion there) and "Renegade Legion".

How strong are vehicle shields (I don't think the portable shields are as strong as starship ones)


Michael

[warmon4]

I signed up ,maybe we could get a whole "book" writen about what the "Ground Forces" might be like.

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"Seatbelts?!?! Why would we need those on a starship?" Starfleet's first bridge designer

[toadkiller]

For my game I've done the following:

Each planet has a "milita" as described (very well ) above. These forces are not intended to be transported from planet of origin - but may be for something really big. (Like the Dominion war, shifted some units to planets deemed "higher risk") IF they are moved, then transport is provided on civilian passenger ships (as in WWI and II).

The equipment and training really varies depending on the situation. On small colonies they are only really able to repel small scale raids from pirates, etc. and supply person power in emergency/disaster situations. Large core worlds may have a force that equals the Marines in equipment and training - but without the mobility.

Also - each member world of any real size fields a "coast guard" that has light warp capable (armed) cutters to deal with SAR, and customs issues. They may be "borrowed" by Star Fleet if the need presents...but that is OT.

Federation Marines: The only standing ground force at the federal level. Peacetime duties involve training milita troops (either at sector training facilites or by going to the individual worlds), disaster relief and manning defensive positions on "hot" planets in additon to local forces.

Wartime role - defending or recapturing Federation planets. Offensive attacks against the enemy. During wartime they would be augmented by militas as needed (see above).

I (obviously) didn't invent any of this and YMMV.

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TK

[Brad]

I tend to follow toadkiller's method myself and mix up the races as much as possible...yes this may cause some problems if for example the CO commands a regiment with the majority of troops being Andorian, but this opens up plenty of roleplaying scenarios. I also have a Force Recon as part of my scenarios. I can see individual planets also having their own special forces type units made available to the Federation on an as needed basis.

[Penta]

I personally go with the view presented by...was it 3rd/4th Season VOY where Janeway described her time as a ground trooper fighting the cards?

Namely, there IS no UFP-wide ground forces. They're SF officers given phaser rifles, plunked on the dirtball, and told to fight.

However, individual UFP members still retain their own forces....see the ADF, V'shar, etc. as examples. These are like the National Guard in the US....local yokels. Depending on the planet, they MAY be trained troops equal to your average SF officer, and they're all equipped equally...but, then again, they might be totally green. (Places out near Ekos, etc. on the ass-end of Fedspace usually are like this)

I, also, for the record, tend to disagree with the point of rapid reaction teams. That works better just training sec officers to that level by virtue of regular training.

[SIR SIG]

And there were O'Briens refs to the carddie war to as a soldier.

Maybe ground forces are made up of reassigned personnel from SF for short term tours?

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SIR SIG a Aussie TREK Narrator