Second Klingon Federation War

[JALU3]

Relating to my campaign idea . . . this conflict starting at the beginning of season 4 of DS9, and ending within the first 1/4 of seaon 5 . . . what type of campaign setting can I create? Will there be tension on the border prior to the Klingons moving into the Cardassian Union? Or will be it a sudden polorization with factions trapped on one side of the border ot the other? Will there be open hostilities on the entire border, or will there be hot and cold spots? What level of raiding will both sides conduct? How will each side treat those stuck within their side of the line of control when the firing starts? How much of the Klingon Imperial Fleet be in CU, and how much will be conducting operations on the Federation-Klingon front? Are there Great Houses conducting their own private wars into Federation space, outside of the normal attack axis of the Empire? How long would it take for the Federation to secure its line of control? Are there any major retreats, on either side? What of assistance of client races under the Klingon Empire?

From my understanding atleast 12 months of the war is hot (starting with The Way of the Warrior), with it starting to cool down after Apocolypse Rising, but not ending until sometime after . . . Nor the Battle to the Strong

All this would be in prelude to the upcoming Dominion War . . . but it will also get them use to a combat environment in the Federation.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Relating to my campaign idea . . . this conflict starting at the beginning of season 4 of DS9, and ending within the first 1/4 of seaon 5 . . . what type of campaign setting can I create? Will there be tension on the border prior to the Klingons moving into the Cardassian Union? Or will be it a sudden polorization with factions trapped on one side of the border ot the other? Will there be open hostilities on the entire border, or will there be hot and cold spots? What level of raiding will both sides conduct?

Area tensions probably have to do with the Klingons' local attitudes. Klingon raids continued into the alliance period; the Federation probably didn't consider them 'official acts of the Klingon government,' but that's because I doubt most UFP citizens remember that the Empire is a conglomerate of feudal ogliarchies. The actions of each House depends on the personalities, goals and resources of the individual House's leadership.

So, if the House is economically tied to the Federation and a more 'progressive' example of what a House can contribute to the society of a sector (in it's restraint in relating to weaker or neutral worlds), it could be a comfortable region suddenly torn by higher political concerns.

The ideal might be to have two prominent Houses in the area; one powerful, and tied by its wealth to the Federation, another more insular, militant and looking to take control of the other House's assets and local Federation worlds.

On the Federation side, if the region has seen heavy fighting with the Klingons historically (like the Archanis sector, Donatu V or Organian space) the locals might be calling for Starfleet to be more aggressive in removing the Klingon threat–assuming there are inhabitants with memories that long. On the other hand, they might be staunchly Klingon-friendly, used to Klingon culture and habits. There may even be significant Klingon populations on these border planets that feel more, say Gamma Hydran than part of the Empire.

How will each side treat those stuck within their side of the line of control when the firing starts?

The Federation has very strict laws for POWs and possible hostile populations (probably). That said, individual Federation citizens, Stafleet or not, are not immune to vengeful feelings. Again, with Klingons, individual attitutes affect it much more.

How much of the Klingon Imperial Fleet be in CU, and how much will be conducting operations on the Federation-Klingon front?

Up to you. Remember, getting ships to go somewhere is in itself a political game, as they're owned by Houses who'd need convincing that the Cardassian Union offers more glory and better spoils than nearer Federation planets.

Are there Great Houses conducting their own private wars into Federation space, outside of the normal attack axis of the Empire?

Would there be much of a distinction?

How long would it take for the Federation to secure its line of control? Are there any major retreats, on either side?

Up to you. It's implied that the Archanis sector, at least, is taken by the Klingons.

What of assistance of client races under the Klingon Empire?

This is probably where the Klingon's alliance with the Federaton hurts them the worst. The Federation has been dealing extensively (and directly, without going through the Klingon governors) with Klingon servitors. In a situation like this, they'll probably cry out to the Federation for help in removing the Klingon yoke. From a human (er, sentient) rights angle, the opportunity to help (and thus remove key parts of the Klingon economy) should clearly be taken. However, anything so drastic might severely complicate negotiations with the Klingons for peace–they'll not likely to accept proposals that carve such huge chunks out of their territories. If there's anything that will divide Federation strategists (and Starfleet officers in the field), it will be this.

[JALU3]

Klingon raids continued into the alliance period; the Federation probably didn't consider them 'official acts of the Klingon government,

Exept for the sleeper ship, can you give examples? If so, wouldn't the Federation have been in a perpetual state of readiness on the border, rather then in a peacetime footing? And would there be Klingon forces which would have enforced the Imperial policy monitoring the border, that would have dropped back just before hostilities?

The actions of each House depends on the personalities, goals and resources of the individual House's leadership.

So, if the House is economically tied to the Federation and a more 'progressive' example of what a House can contribute to the society of a sector (in it's restraint in relating to weaker or neutral worlds), it could be a comfortable region suddenly torn by higher political concerns.

Now those houses that were tied to the Federation, economically, and possibly recieving technology and other such aid . . . wouldn't they be at a loss due to the Empire's policy shift? But wouldn't they also be at a more extreme loss if they openly began to side with the Federation, or provided any form of safe harbor? Because if say they went all non-aligned, wouldn't that be seen as dishonoring them in they eyes of the "Emporer's appoint Chancaller"? And with that bringing the stripping of titles, land, ships, power . . .
So wouldn't there by houses that give say token support for the empire, but nothing more then miminally required (say one K'Vort for example).

On the Federation side, if the region has seen heavy fighting with the Klingons historically (like the Archanis sector, Donatu V or Organian space) the locals might be calling for Starfleet to be more aggressive in removing the Klingon threat–assuming there are inhabitants with memories that long.

Since as you say, there were continuous raiding, and since these areas would be prime raiding targets in the first place, wouldn't it reason that these areas should have been better fortified? Furthermore, in areas such as these, would the Federation have forsaw attacks, and began evacuating in earnest?

On the other hand, they might be staunchly Klingon-friendly, used to Klingon culture and habits.

Can you imagine a mixed species world, of want to be Klingon Warriors offering their service to the empire, rebelling against their nominal Federation Status? Although they aren't romulans, I am sure that some Klingon Houses wouldn't be afraid to tap into them to provide moles to infiltrate the refugees, and cause havoc in the background . . . or raise say a regiment of ground troops.

The Federation has very strict laws for POWs and possible hostile populations (probably). That said, individual Federation citizens, Stafleet or not, are not immune to vengeful feelings. Again, with Klingons, individual attitutes affect it much more.

Some houses would give a short grace period. Some would allow safe harbor for those who renounce their Federation Citizenship, and swear allegiance. Some would not even raise a finger, and let them be. Others would slaughter them en mass.
Feel sorry for the Officer Exchange Officer stuck in the Middle of the Empire.

The Federation has very strict laws for POWs and possible hostile populations (probably).

Would Prisoner swapping be possible between, say more progressive Houses? How would the Empire react to that?

This is probably where the Klingon's alliance with the Federaton hurts them the worst. The Federation has been dealing extensively (and directly, without going through the Klingon governors) with Klingon servitors. In a situation like this, they'll probably cry out to the Federation for help in removing the Klingon yoke. From a human (er, sentient) rights angle, the opportunity to help (and thus remove key parts of the Klingon economy) should clearly be taken. However, anything so drastic might severely complicate negotiations with the Klingons for peace–they'll not likely to accept proposals that carve such huge chunks out of their territories. If there's anything that will divide Federation strategists (and Starfleet officers in the field), it will be this.

What members would side with which stances? Would different arms of the Federation be working against one another in situations like these, possibly unknowingly?

That brings up another question, what of the PDFs (Planetary Defense Forces) . . . this would be an interesting time to introduce them . . . see them wage a valiant defense with a retired Constitution, or older class ships, for example.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Exept for the sleeper ship, can you give examples? If so, wouldn't the Federation have been in a perpetual state of readiness on the border, rather then in a peacetime footing? And would there be Klingon forces which would have enforced the Imperial policy monitoring the border, that would have dropped back just before hostilities?

In 'Aquiel', Picard's like 'there hasn't been a raid in seven years...' In the TNG Companion, RDM mentions it specifically as something he put in to imply the alliance wasn't entirely peaceful.

Don't think of it as 'the Empire vs. the Great Houses.' The Empire is an aggregate, the Chancellor leader of the most powerful coalition of houses. His ability to get them to cooperate is not part of legislation or the power of the State, but a reflection of his ability as a Chancellor. Power rests not with the position in Klingon society; power is always personal.

However, obedience to the hierarchy is also part of Klingon honour; any action taken in defiance of the Chancellor's edicts must be presented as more honourable than those the Chancellor wishes.

Federation attitudes would thus be watchful, but not as vigilant as, say, the RNZ. Perhaps certain fast starships stationed at key points to respond to raids, but not designed to immediately engage in full-scale war.

Now those houses that were tied to the Federation, economically, and possibly recieving technology and other such aid . . . wouldn't they be at a loss due to the Empire's policy shift?

Probably.

But wouldn't they also be at a more extreme loss if they openly began to side with the Federation, or provided any form of safe harbor? Because if say they went all non-aligned, wouldn't that be seen as dishonoring them in they eyes of the "Emporer's appoint Chancaller"? And with that bringing the stripping of titles, land, ships, power . . .

Assuming the Chancellor has the resources to punish them, which, if the rest of his allies on the Great Council are tied up fighting the Cardassians and Federation, enforcing that might be an unneeded distraction, as well as threatening another Civil War. It's possible some houses did, in fact, side with the Federation, hoping that they'd win and Gowron would be unseated following that.

[quote]So wouldn't there by houses that give say token support for the empire, but nothing more then miminally required (say one K'Vort for example).

Also probable, and the most likely if they didn't want to gamble.

Since as you say, there were continuous raiding, and since these areas would be prime raiding targets in the first place, wouldn't it reason that these areas should have been better fortified?

Once in seven years is more 'sporadic.' It probably goes up and down based on who thinks they can get away with it.

Certain areas would probably be better defended, but again, a raid and a full-out assault are very different things. Raids imply taking stuff; assault is destruction and invasion. Different attacker goals mean different defenses.

Furthermore, in areas such as these, would the Federation have forsaw attacks, and began evacuating in earnest?

Also likely.

Can you imagine a mixed species world, of want to be Klingon Warriors offering their service to the empire, rebelling against their nominal Federation Status? Although they aren't romulans, I am sure that some Klingon Houses wouldn't be afraid to tap into them to provide moles to infiltrate the refugees, and cause havoc in the background . . . or raise say a regiment of ground troops.

Also possible.

Some houses would give a short grace period. Some would allow safe harbor for those who renounce their Federation Citizenship, and swear allegiance. Some would not even raise a finger, and let them be. Others would slaughter them en mass.
Feel sorry for the Officer Exchange Officer stuck in the Middle of the Empire.

Mhm. It probably has to deal with what the Klingon expects the outcome of the war to be.

Would Prisoner swapping be possible between, say more progressive Houses? How would the Empire react to that?

Likely, although... "Klingons do not take... prisoners." If someone's captured, it's for a specific reason.

What members would side with which stances? Would different arms of the Federation be working against one another in situations like these, possibly unknowingly?

Attitudes will vary, of course. Some Vulcans may prefer to negotiate, while others would see the logical action to be immediate reprisals.

That brings up another question, what of the PDFs (Planetary Defense Forces) . . . this would be an interesting time to introduce them . . . see them wage a valiant defense with a retired Constitution, or older class ships, for example.

Or D12s they bought when the House of Kang had a clearance sale...

[Antonsb214]

Maybe this Memory Alpha link will help
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Seco...on-Klingon_War

But Starfleet seemed out-numbered at the outset and ill-prepared to fight a down and dirty ground war. But as soon as Starfleet got geared up for war it was a different matter, but they still seemed to have a hard time fighting Klingons in hand-to-hand.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Maybe this Memory Alpha link will help
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Seco...on-Klingon_War

But Starfleet seemed out-numbered at the outset and ill-prepared to fight a down and dirty ground war. But as soon as Starfleet got geared up for war it was a different matter, but they still seemed to have a hard time fighting Klingons in hand-to-hand.

Dude, he linked to it in the first post.

[Jem'hadar]

I forget the name of the TNG episode that involved Tasha Yar & the temporal displacement concerning the Enterprise C that led to a Federation-Klingon War. But in it, Picard admitted that the Klingons were on the verge of winning the war.

It seems to me that if there was a 24th century war b/t the Federation & the Klingons, the Federation would ultimately win. Although the Klingons are born & bred warriors & are ruthless in combat, that alone doesn't guarantee victory. I think the more populous, wealthier Federation would eventually defeat the Klingon Empire, although at great cost in lives.

I liken it to the war b/t Imperial Japan & the U.S. in the 20th century. Japan was a warlike nation where the warrior spirit, the bushido code, was ingrained into nearly every Japanese male, and Japanese soldiers & civilians were taught to die for their Emperor rather than surrender. Imperial Japan was ruthless against its enemies & fought tenaciously to defend their country. They also considered themselves superior to the Americans (and everyone else). But ultimately, Japan could not defeat a large, wealthy industrialized nation like the U.S. that could produce 20 carriers a year. In fact, it never really had any hope of winning, a fact foreseen by a few Japanese like Admiral Yamamoto.

I think the Klingons are a lot like the old Japanese Empire. Very martial, aggressive & a bit too overconfident that warrior skills alone can win a war of attrition. Initially, the Klingons would win staggering victories & destroy many Starfleet ships. But eventually, the Federation's wealth & large population (over 150 worlds) would be able to outproduce the Klingons in war materiel & troops. And Starfleet is not without its own tactical geniuses & brave soldiers as proven in the Dominion War.

But it would be very costly war. Millions would die on each side. Hundreds of ships would be destroyed. Whole worlds would be devastated. But the Federation is more prepared to replace those losses than the Klingon Empire, and thus the Federation would ultimately be victorious.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I forget the name of the TNG episode that involved Tasha Yar & the temporal displacement concerning the Enterprise C that led to a Federation-Klingon War. But in it, Picard admitted that the Klingons were on the verge of winning the war.

Presumably that's because the alt-war started at a time when the Cardassian conflict was heating up, forcing them to split the attention and resources of an organization initially tooled for exploration. The militarization of Starfleet probably didn't come fast enough, or there were socio-political missteps of strategy on the part of the Federation's leaders (and who knows what the Romulans were doing... helping Chancellor Ja'rod maybe?).

When the FKW2 happened, Starfleet and the Federation had been through two decades of war with the Cardassians, a probably non-minor fight with the Tzenkethi and the Tholians, as well as other skirmishes with the Ferengi, Talarians, and the Romulans again after forty years. The war with the Cardassians probably resembled the one with the Klingons, too: focus of taking and holding planets along a contested border, rather than strategies of outright conquest.

Also, and more importantly, the hawks in the halls of Starfleet Command had the Borg as a big, scary, and unknown threat to give more oomph to their calls for more aggressive warfare capabilities. There's probably always been hawks in SC hoping for more militant administration, but before the Borg everyone's always been something they could negotiate with. It's like asking for military funding when you know there's zombies out there–everyone's too freaked out by the idea to say no.

So I suspect that the UFP of 2372 is better prepared infrastructurally and socially to respond to the Klingons than the UFP of the 2350s.

As for the analogy... the Klingons have "a whole bunch of planets," so I think their economy might be able to produce as much as the UFP, especially in terms of war materiél, but it's probably mismanaged or the politics behind the economics would make their actual, practical efficiency lower than the UFP's.

[Jem'hadar]

"a whole bunch of planets,"[/URL] so I think their economy might be able to produce as much as the UFP, especially in terms of war materiél, but it's probably mismanaged or the politics behind the economics would make their actual, practical efficiency lower than the UFP's.

Well, I'm no expert on the Klingon Empire but based on what I've seen in Star Trek episodes, movies & books, their entire society seems geared to producing warriors. Warriors are clearly the ruling class as it was in Feudal Japan. That's great but it's also very inefficient. Klingons do have scientists, engineers, doctors, technicians, etc, but clearly those professions are not as valued or respected as warriors. And I doubt the Klingons have as many people in these scientific professions as the Federation does.

Plus it's obvious that most Klingons are not good business folk & disdain economic pursuits. Remember the DS9 episode where Quark had to save the house of that Klingon woman who was about to go bankrupt?

The Klingon Empire may have many worlds but I highly doubt the population of Klingons throughout their empire exceeds the combined population of over 150 different Federation worlds. Likewise I doubt the industrial capacity of the Klingon Empire exceeds that of the Federation if the Federation were to turn all of its resources to war.

Of course the Klingons can give the Federation a very bloody nose. So bloody, the Federation might sue for peace rather than continue the war. But if the Klingon goal is conquest of many worlds, the Federation might not be willing to compromise.

I think the history of the Federation shows it's very strong. They've fought against the Romulans, Klingons, Cardiassians, the Borg and the Dominion (to name a few) and each time the Federation has not only survived but actually grown stronger.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Well, I'm no expert on the Klingon Empire but based on what I've seen in Star Trek episodes, movies & books, their entire society seems geared to producing warriors. Warriors are clearly the ruling class as it was in Feudal Japan.

You're taking the Klingon PR machine at its word, though. Klingons aren't ruled by warriors; they're ruled by guys who have to act like warriors to fulfill social obligations. Biologically, they're angrier and more aggressive than humans, but that doesn't mean that they lack political acumen.

That's great but it's also very inefficient. Klingons do have scientists, engineers, doctors, technicians, etc, but clearly those professions are not as valued or respected as warriors. And I doubt the Klingons have as many people in these scientific professions as the Federation does.

Oh, they probably do. They're just not allowed off their homeworlds without permission and have little agonizers under their skin.

Plus it's obvious that most Klingons are not good business folk & disdain economic pursuits. Remember the DS9 episode where Quark had to save the house of that Klingon woman who was about to go bankrupt?

Versus the Klingon who was skillfully bleeding her dry through economic means? They have the second-largest interstellar civilisation in local space. They're not stupid. They just have a lot of agendas.

The Klingon Empire may have many worlds but I highly doubt the population of Klingons throughout their empire exceeds the combined population of over 150 different Federation worlds. Likewise I doubt the industrial capacity of the Klingon Empire exceeds that of the Federation if the Federation were to turn all of its resources to war.

Of Klingons, maybe, but assuming they're as frequent colonizers as humans probably not. And like I mentioned, the servitor populations will be exploited to their maximum potential (assuming their ruling House supports the Total War).

The entirety of the Federation wouldn't be turned to total war, probably. If a condition like that emerged, it's likely that pacifistic planets (like Argelius II) would disallow their resources to be turned to warfare; maybe they'd restrict their activities to medical aid. How much a chunk of Federation resources that would take up is unknown.

Of course the Klingons can give the Federation a very bloody nose. So bloody, the Federation might sue for peace rather than continue the war. But if the Klingon goal is conquest of many worlds, the Federation might not be willing to compromise.

That's the thing, isn't it? We don't actually know the Klingon goal in YE. They could very well be looking for a huge chunk of the old OTZ, or they could be trying to put their boots on the core worlds themselves.

I think the history of the Federation shows it's very strong. They've fought against the Romulans, Klingons, Cardiassians, the Borg and the Dominion (to name a few) and each time the Federation has not only survived but actually grown stronger.

I guess that depends on what you mean by 'grown stronger.' If you asked the Federation to prosecute another war immediately after the Dominion, they'd probably crumble.

[JALU3]

One Question which I haven't seen raised up, and something I was thinking about regarding this proposed campaign . . .
What impact did this 9-12 month long hot conflict have one the combat readiness of the Federation in relation to its entry in the Dominion War?
Did this conflict increase combat readiness overall for the Federation?
Did this conflict sap the current combat resources, requiring a shift in theaters and focus, thus causing the Federation off guard?
Did this increase/decrease Ground Forces ("Marines") recruitment?
What impact had this conflict in total GF Numbers of established units?
Did the loss of capital ships during this conflict hamper Starfleets effectiveness in its early defenses?
Did any combat experience gained against the Klingons assist unseasoned Starfleeters for the upcoming conflict?
How did losses due to this conflict impact the Federation in relation to the Dominion War?
And all these questions, how did it effect the Klingon Empire in its abilitiy to bring a force to bear during the Dominion War?

Is it possible that the Klingons, since they were premobalized in Dominion Space (i.e. the Cardassian Union), was in a better position due to it being instigated to fight the Federation?

[The Tatterdemalion King]

The Federation knew war with the Dominion wasn't long in coming–they were prepared enough to launch a strike on Torros III when DS9 was taken.

Is there a special division of Starfleet that handles mainly planetary missions that you can enlist directly in? Would it even have established units?

[Jem'hadar]

"Oh, they probably do. They're just not allowed off their homeworlds without permission and have little agonizers under their skin."

I haven't seen anything in Star Trek TV or movies that suggests the Klingons have as many scientific professionals as the Federation, or emphasize scientific development as much as the Federation.

"They have the second-largest interstellar civilisation in local space. They're not stupid."

When you say "second-largest" what do you mean? If you mean in total size of space under Klingon jurisdiction, perhaps you're right (I have to look at the book on stellar maps). But I find it difficult to believe there are nearly as many Klingons in the galaxy as people in the Federation.

No, Klingons are not stupid & we've seen some very Macchiavellian Klingons who would do a Romulan proud. But their society on whole tends to focus on warlike endeavors & warrior training more than anything else. The Klingon leaders are politicians but they are in the warrior class & I'm sure had to prove themselves warriors before rising in the ranks.

"If you asked the Federation to prosecute another war immediately after the Dominion, they'd probably crumble."

OK, yes the time-frame of a 2nd Klingon-Federation war does matter. Right after the Dominion War means the Federation is a lot weaker than before the war. But I believe the Klingons are weaker too. They fought in the Dominion War & had suffered great losses. I can't really conceive the Klingons attacking the Federation right after achieving a glorious victory w/ the Federation as their brave allies.

I think the more likely scenario is a Romulan-Federation war. The Romulans didn't seem to have suffered as much as the Federation, Klingons or Cardassians. Of all the Alpha Quadrant major powers, they seem most likely to take advantage of the situation & begin new conquests. Or maybe the insular Tholians will decide it's time they expanded their space.