Officers vs. Enlisted?????

[Werewolf141]

I want to know what is the difference between officers personnal and enlisted personnal.

I dont even know what is a waaren officer????

[Tack]

An officer is a graduate from Starfleet Academy. An enlisted member, is a person who has not graduated from the Academy.

[SIR SIG]

Ooh Boy!

In laymans terms enlisted are the people who sign up for military duty, do a basic but intense training course (typically 2-4 mths) and then enter the field as a full fledged private/crewman etc.

Officers being the 'incharge type' go to 'military uni' for typically 4yrs of training and graduate as lts or ensigns etc.

In trek terms, Officers go to the academy for 4yrs and graduate as ensigns, doctors for 8 years and graduate as Lt Jr.
Enlisted begin as crewman 3rd class after basic training but they are out and about serving almost 4 yrs before officers are.

Im sure more miltary inclined members here will add to this rendition but this is the barebones of it.



Oh and Warrant officers are a go between enlisted and officers. In effect they are enlisted with a warrant to be a officer and a way for enlisted to achieve officer status.

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SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[JALU3]

Well hmmm . . . this is very complicated. However, let us keep this simple.

There are two types of personnel . . . officers and enlisted.

Officers are those personnel which command is delegated to and delegated by. Officers in the end are the ones in charge, all actions done under their command are their responsability. Like previosly stated officers go to a long term school (i.e. Colorado Springs, West Point, Annapolis), or an advanced training program (ROTC, OCS) with some other background already been achieved.

Enlisted personnel are those who have gone straight into service without going thru one of the afformentioned programs. They go through boot camp, and take their branch course to learn their specialty. These people are the doers and make up the bulk of the personnel.

One way to look @ it is, if the officers are the brains, the enlisted are the body. Without one, the other cannot survive. But of course NCO's will disagree with that statement.

[redwood973]

Perfect Sir Sig! The only thing I would add is that the Warrant Officers, who are go-betweens enlisted/officers, also act as specialist. Some in administration (yeomen), others medical aids (corpsmen), ect. In the "real world" it is difficult (but not impossible) for a Warrant Officer to become an officer; if they do, they also start as an Ensign.

[Cessna]

Another way to look at is to use a business/industry model. I think this makes for a pretty good paradigm. (Before anyone flames me, I'm a former military NCO...)

Officers are Management. Enlisted are Labor; NCOs are Foremen.

This also leads to why I've always thought that the "officer only" Enterprise was a horrible idea. Can you imagine a business with nothing but managers? That sounds like a Dilbert-esque nightmare to me...!

[ComaBoy]

That sounds like a Dilbert-esque nightmare to me...!

So that's why Picard's tunic is constantly curling up!

[Werewolf141]

OK!!!Did someone have the rank of the enlisted personal???

By the way, can you give the officer rank to???

Thanks!!!!!!!!!

[Dan Gurden]

The only main character from the enlisted Pool was Chief Petty Officer O'Brien. However many of the individuals referred to as crewman on DS9 and Voyager are NCO's and enlisted...

As a rule of thumb. If theres no rank insignia on their collar, they are enlisted, except for O'Brien.

This has however led to a complete ranking insignia system for the enlisted ranks.

Officer ranks tend to be given out to academy graduates, except in very rare circumstances... Theres something going round at the moment called 'Maverick promotions' basically enlisted by-passing Warrant Officer and becoming an officer...

This is rare enough to be fine with most player character types, but as a GM I would still make the player develop an NCO character and buy the Brevet Promotion advantage (as an equivalent advantage)...

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Dan.

"A couple of thoughts from a random mind!"

[Drifter]

Speaking as a veteran:

Enlisted are those who do the work. The laborers, as mentioned above. As an aside, NCOs are enlisted. Warrant officers are, in fact, commissioned.

Warrant Officers (The next level) are typically ranking enlisted that became commissioned, but didn't make the cut to be an actual officer. Warrants are often more-respected by the troops because "they have been there" and the troops know it.

Officers. Some officers (a very small amount) were actually enlisted, first, and pulled college courses or strings with governmental contacts and stepped up to become officers. Most, however, are graduates of the Academy and have never been enlisted.

This was one point of contention that I have always had with Star Trek, despite the fact that I love the setting. Enlisted personnel are what make a military force (even an expeditionary force like Starfleet) go 'round. Without them, there is no military. Star Trek never focused much on them and I feel they define a military organization's personality. Officers are there, and very visible, but so are enlisted and there are a lot more of them...

Old Naval Phrase: It takes a high school diploma to fix something and a college degree to break it again...

[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]

[Drifter]

Of course, it may be that O'brien was given rank insignia because he is a Chief Petty Officer. Chiefs are another little bit of fun, at least in the American navy.

Chiefs (and their more ranking fellows) are a "brotherhood" for lack of a better term. There are some that believe they have the right to tell an officer where to go (usually among the Senior and Master Chief ranks) and actually get away with it among the younger officers.

They also wear rank pins on their collars (like officers) where enlisted personal typically wear only rank patches on their sleeves. These are the guys that make the enlisted portion of the organization run like a machine. Compare them to higher ranking sergeants in the army and marines. The troops will follow a good chief into hell with no hope of return if they respect him or her.

[redwood973]

Enlisted ranks and their ensignia can be found under the Tactical list on the main TrekRPG board (few lines above the discussion contection). It is about third or forth line up from bottem of the Tactical list.
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I have not seen an on-line list of the officer ensignia for you to see, but lowest to highest. . . .
Ensign..........one gold pip
Lieut. J.G......one gold/one black pip
Lieutenant......two gold pips
Lieut. Cmder....two gold/one black pip
Commander.......three gold pips
Captain.........four gold pips
Commodore.......one gold pip in gold rectangle
Rear Admiral....two gold pips in gold rectangle
Vice Admiral....three gold pips in gold rectangle
Admiral.........four gold pips in gold rectangle

[This message has been edited by redwood973 (edited 05-15-2001).]

[Drifter]

I believe the enlisted rank structure for Star Trek goes thusly:

Rank (American Equivelant)
Crewman 3rd Class (Seaman/Airman/Constructionman Recruit)

Crewman 2nd Class (Seaman/Airman/Constructionman Apprentice)

Crewman 1st Class (Seaman/Airman/Constructionman)

Petty Officer 3rd Class (Same)
Petty Officer 2nd Class (Same)
Petty Officer 1st Class (Same)

Chief Petty Officer (Same)
Senior Chief Petty Officer (Same)
Master Chief Petty Officer (Same)

Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (No known equivelant)


Officer Structure:

Ensign
Lieutenant JG
Lieutenant
Lieutenant Commander
Commander
Captain
Commodore

The admirals of Star Trek confuse me a touch. In times of war, I think there should also be a fleet admiral. As well, I think there should be varying degrees of admiral at any other time. So, here is my proposed version of admirals in Starfleet:

Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral

I hope this clears things up, for you, and gives some inspiration for your LUG game.

[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Drifter (edited 05-15-2001).]

[JALU3]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Drifter:
Speaking as a veteran:

Old Naval Phrase: It takes a high school diploma to fix something and a college degree to break it again...

</font>

I got to thinking once, way back when when I had the notion to become a pilot in the Navy (Come one, I was raised in San Diego, and watched Top Gun an Upteenth number of times) (Damn me and my partial color blindness!): Why is it that it takes someone with a Doctorate to design the mechanics to how a plane will work, someone with a Masters to actually design the plane, someone with a Bachleors to fly it, and someone with a High School Diploma to fix it?

My think is that if someone with a High School Diploma successfully designed a plane, then all the above would only need a High School Diploma to do all the aformentioned. Kinda odd don't you think?

[Cessna]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Drifter:
Warrant officers are, in fact, commissioned.</font>

Not exactly. Although they are granted the privileges and status of a Commissioned officer they are given a Warrant, not a Commission. It is entirely possible for a Warrant officer to eventually become a Commissioned officer through subsequent promotions.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Drifter:
Warrant officers (The next level) are typically ranking enlisted that became commissioned, but didn't make the cut to be an actual officer.</font>

That makes it sound like becoming a Warrant officer is somehow a failure. Becoming a Warrant officer is a great honor; the rank is only granted to those with exceptional skills, abilities, and experience. (At least that's how it works in the Marines...)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Drifter:
Some officers (a very small amount) were actually enlisted, first, and pulled college courses or strings with governmental contacts and stepped up to become officers.</font>

Or they are promoted through the Warrant officer ranks to eventually become a Commissioned officer. Or they are sent to a Service Academy (Annapolis, West Point) and are given a regular commission upon graduation.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Drifter:
Most, however, are graduates of the Academy and have never been enlisted.</font>

Or they are graduates of an ROTC program, in which case they are given a commission in the Reserves, but serve on Active Duty. Their next goal (usually around the time they are a First Lieutenant) is to become “augmented,” in which case their Commission is converted from a Reserve Commission to a Regular Commission. If they fail to get “augmented,” they stay in the reserves but are eventually taken off of Active Duty.

Keep in mind that this is all based on the USMC’s way of doing things; I’m sure the other services have their own ways of handling these things.

And yes, I can see this all adapted to Star Trek RPGs. You could set up a character who was not been to Starfleet Academy, but who is trying to gain a regular commission through “augmentation.” I’m sure there would be plenty of politics involved in this process, even in an RPG. Alternately, you could have a character who is an officer but who is a “mustang.” (former enlisted) He’s very competent and very skilled, but isn’t in the “Old Boy’s Club” of Starfleet Academy graduates…