Reactions

[Doug Burke]

That's another thing that bothers me about CODA: levels-lite without addressing the question of what the scale is like. I guess 66 advancements might make sense for a heroic action-y captain... but how high are we talking stuff? Does that mean Sarek has over a hundred? Two hundred?

This was something run into while working up the stats for LOTR. How many advancements shoudl Gandalf have anyway if he's thousands of years old? Just goes to show that advancements are not linked to age, nor are they levels...

[Doug Burke]

Just resist with an attribute (I'd simply Doug's idea and let the player go with the better of the two attributes). Since an average stat modifer is +0 and an average stat is +7, just up the TNs for the set difficulties (like phaser stuns) by 7.

I like this idea. Although I'm going to stick with averaging for now just to take into account the qualities of both attributes suggested. I'll let you guys know how it works out after my game this weekend...

I agree with TK here about the lack of a some sort of gaquge for advancements that tell what is good. I also find it hard to accept that Kirk really has SOOOO many more advancements than McCoy. Sure Kirk is better, but not SIX times better.

Try more like three times. And I reiterate my comment about what advancements aren't from above...

Then again I don't think Kirk could really take down Aragorn in a fight.

Personally, I believe it would depend on what sort of fight we're talking. Swords? No chance. Fists? 50/50. Phasers? You betcha...

[The Tatterdemalion King]

This was something run into while working up the stats for LOTR. How many advancements shoudl Gandalf have anyway if he's thousands of years old? Just goes to show that advancements are not linked to age, nor are they levels...

I... never said they were linked with age. But they are level-like structures in that you get these little packages every once in a while and there's no real guidelines for what relationship between reaction points and skill points after a certain amount of experience should be.

[Doug Burke]

I... never said they were linked with age. But they are level-like structures in that you get these little packages every once in a while and there's no real guidelines for what relationship between reaction points and skill points after a certain amount of experience should be.

The only problem is that, with D20/D&D levels, everyone in a specific class gets the same thing every level. A 9th level fighter has the same number of feats, skill points, saves, attack bonuses as any other fighter of 9th level (with minor variations for attribute modifiers).

However, with advancements, it's all up in the air. Each character chooses what he advances and how much. If a child has a very interesting life, he could conceivably have three times the advancements as an older character by the time he reaches adulthood. Between surviving the massacre on Tarsus IV, the Farragut incident, the Axanar Peace Conference, visiting Neural, beating the Kobayashi Maru, and becoming one of the youngest commanding officers in Starfleet history, I'd say Kirk's life was pretty interesting.

But that could just be me...

[Liquidator Queeg]

The only problem is that, with D20/D&D levels, everyone in a specific class gets the same thing every level. A 9th level fighter has the same number of feats, skill points, saves, attack bonuses as any other fighter of 9th level (with minor variations for attribute modifiers).

Only mostly true, Doug. They have the same base attack bonus and base saves. With attribute mods, hit point totals, racial abilities and fighter bonus + normal feat selection -- those 9th level fighters may look nothing alike, even though they have the "same number" of choices. Witness the "two-weapon finesse" fighter vs the "tank" fighter vs the "machine gun arrow" fighter vs the "mobile striking" fighter ... they will all have different attack bonuses, number of attacks, AC, saves, movement, hit points, and so forth. More than what I would quantify as minor variations for attribute modifiers.

However, with advancements, it's all up in the air. Each character chooses what he advances and how much. If a child has a very interesting life, he could conceivably have three times the advancements as an older character by the time he reaches adulthood. Between surviving the massacre on Tarsus IV, the Farragut incident, the Axanar Peace Conference, visiting Neural, beating the Kobayashi Maru, and becoming one of the youngest commanding officers in Starfleet history, I'd say Kirk's life was pretty interesting.

But that could just be me...

I've found the flexibility of CODA advancements to be both a curse and a blessing. A blessing in that you can really customise a character, more so than with a game like D&D that has more regimented level-progressions. Yet with CODA it's invariably a black art to measure relative character power and capability with the advancement system as it's designed. You really have to break characters down into more granular "units" of skills, attributes & reactions, combat prowess, (magical ability with LotR RPG), and such to compare them.

I'm not saying that's good or bad from a design point of view, or trying to pick apart CODA advancements. I sort of like them for what they do in the system. But, from my behind the screen perspective, I do find it more difficult to determine what is "challenging" (to steal the D&D vernacular) for a group of CODA characters because they can all be so different whether they have the same number of advancements or not.

LQ

[Doug Burke]

Only mostly true, Doug. They have the same base attack bonus and base saves. With attribute mods, hit point totals, racial abilities and fighter bonus + normal feat selection -- those 9th level fighters may look nothing alike, even though they have the "same number" of choices. Witness the "two-weapon finesse" fighter vs the "tank" fighter vs the "machine gun arrow" fighter vs the "mobile striking" fighter ... they will all have different attack bonuses, number of attacks, AC, saves, movement, hit points, and so forth. More than what I would quantify as minor variations for attribute modifiers.

True enough. But you can still have an adventure "for 8th-10th level characters" make sense.

I've found the flexibility of CODA advancements to be both a curse and a blessing. A blessing in that you can really customise a character, more so than with a game like D&D that has more regimented level-progressions. Yet with CODA it's invariably a black art to measure relative character power and capability with the advancement system as it's designed. You really have to break characters down into more granular "units" of skills, attributes & reactions, combat prowess, (magical ability with LotR RPG), and such to compare them.

I'm not saying that's good or bad from a design point of view, or trying to pick apart CODA advancements. I sort of like them for what they do in the system. But, from my behind the screen perspective, I do find it more difficult to determine what is "challenging" (to steal the D&D vernacular) for a group of CODA characters because they can all be so different whether they have the same number of advancements or not.

Agreed. It's a challenge. I usually go based on indivudal skil/ability comparison for anything that would be a major plot point. otherwise, I just fudge it...

But in the case of Reactions, I felt action needed to be taken...

[Liquidator Queeg]

True enough. But you can still have an adventure "for 8th-10th level characters" make sense.

Certainly. I was just blabbering on about how D&D level progressions aren't as "cardboard cutout" as they used to be.

Agreed. It's a challenge. I usually go based on indivudal skil/ability comparison for anything that would be a major plot point. otherwise, I just fudge it...

But in the case of Reactions, I felt action needed to be taken...

And I'm glad that Trek RPG mooks like us care about these things! The *&#@wad "owners of the RPG property" certainly didn't.

LQ

[aelius]

I find that the reactions work fine. But only when you expand the edge and skill list with some of the ones from LOTR.
For instance, the skill Insight takes the place of the Savvy reaction. This means that a profession with the Insight skill allows someone to train to read people, thus allowing them to use the skill in place of the reaction. The reaction becomes a persons innate ability. A trained person is going to be better than someone going off of their gut most of the time.
The Quickness reaction is mostly used as a topper to Defense, Dodge and Initiative, and thus increasing it radically would make those too high. If someone invests the points to have catlike reflexes, well thats the way he wants to spend his points.
Willpower has an impressive number of edges to boost it if you include the LOTR edges (I know because a mage in one game built up to a Will of 17 just by buying edges).
Stamina also has a fair number of edges letting you build up to reasonable levels of ability.
Overall I don't have a problem with the low reaction numbers, because they are only the basis of your reaction so you can build on that base to improve.
Of course my friends and I have expanded the base rules out with a lot more professions and edges, so I suppose we have more to choose from.

[Dr_Sage]

I am under the impression that these given examples are not very good ones.

Mr Tuvok would have Mind Shield Skill (or some equivalent, to be created if needed). Or we couyld emulate that with edges (vulcan mind shield technique for example, giving bonuses to resist psy effects).

I believe phaser stun effects in ST are supposed to be resisted only once in a while, and maybe using courage points.

Maybe we should remmember to use character traits more often and not just in combat/critical situations.

* Want to jump into the antimater contaiment to make heroic emergency repairs? Shure, lets check your Will first.
* Drinking with klingons? Shure! Lets check if your systen can take it.
* Want to see if that sexy alien invitation for dinner can be a trap? Shure, thats why you have Savvy, and so on.

Just 2 cents.

Regards,

Andre

PS: Glad to be back.

[Doug Burke]

I am under the impression that these given examples are not very good ones.

My examples are using the characters as written in the Narrator's Guide. Quality is based off that, really...

Mr Tuvok would have Mind Shield Skill (or some equivalent, to be created if needed). Or we couyld emulate that with edges (vulcan mind shield technique for example, giving bonuses to resist psy effects).

Well, if you went based off Tuvok's Mind Shield Skill, his chances of resisting Spock go up by all of 1 point. (Mind Shield +2, Psi +0, 1/2 Willpower +1 = +3 modifier). Still not very likely to succeed, no?

I believe phaser stun effects in ST are supposed to be resisted only once in a while, and maybe using courage points.

True enopugh. Which is why I don't want to make them too easy to beat...

Andre

PS: Glad to be back.

Glad to have you back!

[PGoodman13]

I really need to get off my ass and finish the bloody NG errata, don't I?

[Doug Burke]

I really need to get off my ass and finish the bloody NG errata, don't I?

*shrug* Either way...

BTW, I ran my first session with the changes i suggested and it went rather well. Needs a bit more testing, but I think, for now, i'm going to keep it...