Starship Construction Bood (Multi system)

[tonyg]

I've been working on expanding the tables and systems given in CODA. Specfically trying to give the TOS era and the "in-between" years (Pre Cage-TOS, post STVI) some more intermediate engines and equipment.

I've also been putting Meteo's ICON CONSTRUCTION GUIDE 2.0 on a spreadsheet.

In both cases I've pulled out SPACEDOCK to help fill in the gaps (like impulse engines between .25c and .5c).


Now I'm starting to think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to condense it all into one chart with Data from both systems and the Spacedock identification as well. THat would allow ICON fans to build ships using the same rules as CODA, and just use a different column for stats. So a PFF 3 14/3 deflector shield would have a 48/70 rating in the ICON column.


Does that seem like a good idea?

[RealPity]

Most definitely ! I'd appreciate seeing that !

[tonyg]

Most definitely ! I'd appreciate seeing that !

Okay,

I'll work on it. It won't be instant results, but something that is compatible with CODA and ICON seems doable. Maybe I'll push my luck and pull out the FASA SCM?

So:
CODA Type IV phaser= Type VII (ICON)= PH-3 (FASA)= Lockheed 454/27 Mark IX emitter (SotS/ST:TM)

CODA Type V phaser= Type VIII (ICON) =PH-10 (FASA)= RIM-12C (SotS)


Good thing I don't get headaches.

[RealPity]

You can probably make as much extra work for yourself as you can stand !

I know FASA was good for designating everything for every spacegoing race ... Klingon Torpedoes type KP-1 thru KP-x for example.

Personally I like that level of detail. One thing I didn't like about CODA was that starships gave each major power it's own specific weapons but then generalized everyone into the same shields.
Call me weird but even if the stats are the same I'd rather the Federation PFF3 be refered to as something different for Klingons & Romulans ... like FASA did.
That's just me though.

The TOS SRM, in addition to the impulse speeds, has some ships with lasers and missile packs too, at least damage is easy to convert by dividing by ten.

There was site online too where someone added a few ship types in the Sovereign family ... Legacy & Regent if memory serves ... the site also had a lot of work on new & varying weapon systems ... if I recall such things as Plasma, Singularity & some Heavy Torpedoes that do diminishing damage by range, Talon scouts with internal & external modules. Funky kinds of shielding. All kinds of little things, mostly for Fed & Romulan ships.
I'd have it all on file & can send it to you if it could be of interest.

[tonyg]

I've got some ideas, but need to test the waters and see what will fly.

FOr instance, I have a new Offense table that works for all the weapons., and it lets me add in stuff like RIM-12C or RIM-15A phasers along with Mark VII 17.7QEV Dilithium Focused Lasers.

I suppose I could use stuff like RSAT/HIRAM and "Lancelot" defenctor shields. The hard part with shields though is that there isn't much room to vary them performace wise, about 6 points for either stat. I'll see what I can do.

One thing that I did like in the old Birth of the Federation computer game was how each species ships were a little different. Fed ships had the best shields, Klingons the best weapons, Cardassian ships had better hulls and so forth.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

One thing that I did like in the old Birth of the Federation computer game was how each species ships were a little different. Fed ships had the best shields, Klingons the best weapons, Cardassian ships had better hulls and so forth.

Yeah, but that's a starship combat game, not an RPG.

[RealPity]

I got the impression Spacedock was trying to get across the point of better Klingon weapons as the weapons were more than a x20 for damage like phasers ... Klingon Disruptors Type 10 do 220 damage, thus 22 in ICON vs. the 20 as posted in ICON books.

Maybe something with earlier availability (ala CODA) and cheaper pricing (if you're getting that indepth) could reflect such things ...

[tonyg]

I got the impression Spacedock was trying to get across the point of better Klingon weapons as the weapons were more than a x20 for damage like phasers ... Klingon Disruptors Type 10 do 220 damage, thus 22 in ICON vs. the 20 as posted in ICON books.

Maybe something with earlier availability (ala CODA) and cheaper pricing (if you're getting that indepth) could reflect such things ...

Maybe. With CODA type offense, it could be easy to just have Klingon weapon systems slightly cheaper (-1 to cost). Fed's could get a cost break on shields of -1, Cardassians could get +5 STR for 4 SPACE and so forth. It's an idea. I'm just not sure if it is a good idea.

[tonyg]

Yeah, but that's a starship combat game, not an RPG.

True, but it is Trek, and I kinda like the idea of each culture having an edge. Not sure how it will work out after I go through "R&D" though.


So far expanding the tables in the SS for the Federation has been pretty easy. I did have to tweak one ot two system, but it is mostly adding in new stuff to cover "missing" eras of play., and fleshing out the early eras so that TOS era ships don't all look alike.

Generally there are a few more options to make trade offs. Like the Mega Pulse Cannons. Good offense score, have the "pulse" upgrade built in, but take up more space than conventional phasers of the era. Or the Mk 4 DF ("Zeus" photorp that packs a big punch (about 8 Offense, and that in in TMP era), but has limited range, and takes up about twice the space of a Mark 6 DF.

And there are a few cases where there is a Type-3 and Type 5 component, and no type 4, but room to fit one in performance wise. For example I added a Warp3 and Warp 4 drive in between the 2c and the Warp 5.



The problem will be with the other cultures. We have a lot more Starfleet ships than ships for all the other cultures combined, so we have less to go on. I'll probably be able to pull some new systems from source material, and extrapolate a few other things (such as an STN2A warp drive for the Klingons that can hit WF 5.)



I'll also need to do something to address Enterprise. Basically, it's two differernt cronologies that either need to be integrated and resolved somehow, or, if kept separate, I'll need some sort of alternation to the dates of availability for some components. Enterprise has much better stuff, like a Warp 5 engine, "phasers" and "photonic" torpedoes.

I figure I should give two or three options to try and tie that in with the poorer performing Daedalus-class (at least prior to Enterprise).

My basic solutions will be:

1) The "Time Barrier" mentioned in "the Cage" will mean that Warp Engines will suffer a form of time dilation prior to the 2240s or so that effectively limits the speed of ships. This will in effect cap the performance on the old engines, with any increase in speed past a certain point being offset by the dilation effect.
I'm thinking of using the standard time dilation formula and substituting a value in conchranes for c. If I use 365.25 (1ly/day) then around warp 6.36 the time dilation effects outweigh the "speed" effects.

2) I'm introducing "Dilithium Focused Lasers" for pre-TOS era. They are better than Phase Cannons, and dilitulim focusing is eventually incorporated into Phase cannons to produce "Dilithium Focused Phased Weapons" or Phasers.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Lockheed?

[tonyg]

Lockheed?

From ships of the Star Fleet.

I'd planning on throwing in the RIM-12C and all that stuff that were in the old "blueprints". For the most part, they will be similar to the "Type" style phaser strips that replace them, but not as small.

I'm also going to get rid of the Type I-III Phasers, since we never see them on any ship, and lower the SIZE for the Type IV and V phasers since they were usually seen on shuttlecraft.

I've also got a optional rule for "capping" penetration by phaser type. It's to adress something that really bugs me about CODA ships. Basically, all the phaser types above Type II or III (for "heavy ships") are inferior, since you get more "bang for the buck" out of the Type IIs and IIIs. That doesn't make much sense. Why bother installing Type X or XII phasers if a bunch of Type IIs or IIIs would be better.

For example, a TOS era Constitution-class starship has Type IV x3, giving 12 Offense for 6 Space. Replace those with Type II x6 and you get 18 offense, a 50% increase.

A TMP era Constitution-class has Type V x6, for a 30 Offense, and taking up 24 Spaces. Replace with 24 Type III's and offense shoots up to 72, a 140% increase!

Get to the TNG era and you wonder why they are making "better" phasers.


My optuional rule is to cap Penetration off by the Phaser type, but the extra damage does apply if the attack gets though the Threshold.

That way a Galaxy-class with Type X x5 for Offense 50 and Penetration 6/6/6/0/0 will be better than one with Type II x60, Offense 120 and Penetration (2) 9/9/8/0/0

It should eliminate "Ranger-itis"

[skree]

How would you handle time dilation in the rpg?

[Tomcat]

My optuional rule is to cap Penetration off by the Phaser type, but the extra damage does apply if the attack gets though the Threshold.

Why don't you just house rule a limit on th number of arrays that can be purchased by era; just add another column on the table that shows a maximum number of units that can be installed by size category.

This can be easily explained because older technology would be bulkier, require more energy to charge, and less efficient with new technology (i.e. targeting systems may not be compatible, target's shield systems may be to advanced for penetration, etc.) Let alone that the equipment would even be available - have you seen a Betamax recently? Or an 8-track tape?

It is understood that any era's phaser arrays would have to be large, so a hull can only support so many guns. Why did an Iowa class battleship mount only four large turrets? Space on the ship - and the vessel had to be prepared when all weapons fire in tandem.

Lastly, it is always said that the Federation mounted weapons on their ships primarily for defense, that the starships were more for exploration, discovery, and the meeting of new intelligent beings. Other races may have a vessel barbed with 24 mounts but it doesn't go with the ideas of Starfleet.

Now I know that the CODA system works more in the abstract - that the number of units purchased are not actual mounts, but more of a reflection of the ship's offensive value. Still, I default back to my point above - that older technology would not be compatible to new ship design and systems.

My two pennies...

[tonyg]

Why don't you just house rule a limit on th number of arrays that can be purchased by era; just add another column on the table that shows a maximum number of units that can be installed by size category.

Because that is artificial. THe number of arrays or "banks" is a function of both the size of the ship AND the size of the "gun". For instance while the Iowa only has four turrets (with three 406mm guns each, for 4 banks of 3), it also has a nie assortment of smaller cannon, machineguns, and in the end missiles. And while all those are limited somewhat by the size of the ship and it's need to do other things, you could literally put 100 machineguns on it easily. Otr even several dozen 120mm guns.

They don't in the real world because those 12x406mm do a lot more damage than a mulitude of the smaller. A huundred .50 cals cannot penetrate the 12" belt armor on a battleship, ever.

ON screen we see a few times where a ship simply poses no threat to the ENt-D and can't get though her shields. In CODA it doesn't work that way. Any hit will wear down the shield Stregth, and a bunch of little guns have the same effect as a few big guns.

The other thing is that, based on the spaces, and the technology, an older gun may not necessarily be smaller. An 100 year old cannon is still smaller than a 155mm gun. I could accept that the old phasers on the Constitution-class could be larger than the phaser arrays from TNG. Unfortunately, the SPACE and offense ratings tell a different story. The newer arrays are much larger than the older systems.


As for older ships tech not being compatible. Nice idea, but the information seen on screen seems to show otherwise. We have lots of older ships that stick around from the TMP era through to DS9 and beyond.

What you find if you try to "upgrade" thenm to TNG standards, that the TOS and TMP era weapon systems have more bang for the buck that the TNG ones.

The classic example is the official Ranger-class write up that fitted it out with a bunch of small weapons and so make a ship that rivaled the Constitution-class for firepower.


With ICON and SPACEDOCK one Type XII phaser was better than four type III. Not so in CODA.