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Thread: Stealth systems on starfleet ships?

  1. #1

    Stealth systems on starfleet ships?

    Hi,
    I recently "re-discovered" my Star Trek RPG stuff, and my weirdo-mad-scientist brain becan to cook up starship design ideas... *MWAHAHAHA*

    So one thing that bothers me is:
    How is Starfleets opinion on stealth systems aboard their ships? I know, there's the treaty of Algeron which forbids them cloaking devices, but there are other devices in spacedock, like hull holo-emitters or the energy sheath.

    Some sources state that Starfleet and the Federation have a certain dislike for sneaky stuff, so there might be "ethical" or "traditional" reasons speaking against stealth ships in Starfleet. Yet those might be the opinions of certain characters.

    What do you people think? Is there a place in Starfleet for stealthy recon ships and the like?


    Thanks in advance,
    Trickster

  2. #2
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    The use of Stealth systems, like cloaking devices, is banned by the Romulan Federation pact names Treaty of Algeron. There is a quite good TNG Episode "The Pegasus" that deals exactly with that kind of situation. But in your game, you can use as much canon as you'd like and if you throw section 31 in the mix, stealth and cloaking ships could easily be a part of a storyline

  3. #3
    They probably do what they can to minimize the sensor profile of scout ships, but outright deception through some sort of constant holo-emitter use or the like would probably be something only used in situations where hostile intent from other parties was assumed. To do otherwise would act against building trust and honest relationships with other spacefaring cultures.
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  4. #4
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    I expect the Federation as a whole has a wide range of stealth technologies, from fully functional cloaking devices to recipes for a hasty jury-rigging of the power output to reduce it, and uses it accordingly to its needs and level of clearance.

    For instance, while no Starfleet Captain worth his oath would think of using a cloaking device, I don't think section 31 has much concerns in that aspects. However, Starfleet ships could be routinely equipped with devices to reduce or mask energy trail of a ship, in the case of intelligence missions, or when conducing studies on less advanced civilizations (like the holo emitters used in Insurrection, but extended to a whole ship - a Starfleet vessel spying on a world with XXIst century Earth tech level would need a few thingies to avoid appearing on radars or telescopes).

    And, in case of emergencies, I think an engineer has all he needs to grant his ship with whatever stealth it needs...
    "The main difference between Trekkies and Manchester United fans is that Trekkies never trashed a train carriage. So why are the Trekkies the social outcasts?"
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  5. #5
    For example, the Defiant disguised its warp signature to look like a freighter and altered its comm system to show a Kobheerian instead of Sisko in 'Second Skin.'
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  6. #6
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    There's already the "Phased Mass Holographic Masking Device" & "The Gemini Device" from "Star Trek: Away Team" & other games.
    "We're Starfleet Officers, Mister Kim. 'Weird,' is part of the job."
    - Captain Kathrine Janeway, USS Voyager.

  7. #7
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    Depends on what you mean by stealth. Do you want to reduce active emissions, or passive emissions?

    Active emissions is pretty much like radar, either using radio waves, microwaves, lidar, sonar (for submarines only) or in Star Trek's case, the subspace version of radar, plus gravitic and tachyon nets (like on the Romulan border). These are easy to hide by turning the emitter off, but of course you lose some information gathering.

    Passive emissions are trickier. I am going to assume that the Enterprise D is a solid box 641m long, 470m wide, and 145m tall. That is a total surface area of 924,730 square meters.

    In "The Dauphin", it was established that a TeraWatt emitter was more than the entire ship.

    In Allegiance it was established that Geordi wanted to get the efficiency up to 95%.

    This means 5% of the main reactor's power has to be dissipated as heat, or 50 GigaWatts. Assuming the surface area is 1 million square meters (to make the math easy), that meant the ship is dissipating on average 50 kilowatts per square meter (obviously most parts of the ship will be cooler, but the radiators will be much hotter to compensate). The solar constant at Earth's orbit is only 1.4 kilowatts per square meter.

    Basically a Galaxy starship is putting out thirty-five times the sun's power at Earth's orbit. If you don't mind waiting for speed of light sensors, there should be no way for a Galaxy class starship to hide in a star system. Even if it is dumped into the impulse engine exhaust, that is a large amount of heat, which will be picked up quite easily.

    Of course, that also places a limit on cloaked starships. If the ship is cloaked, but is pumping out superheated gases in its impulse exhaust, then the ship can still be tracked.
    Last edited by Coalition; 12-02-2008 at 12:03 PM. Reason: darn spelling errors

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Coalition View Post
    This means 5% of the main reactor's power has to be dissipated as heat, or 50 GigaWatts.
    Wouldn't they be recycling some of that as other forms of energy?
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    Cool set of numbers, though you have to take it somewhat in cheek, as Geordie said it was more.. not how much more!

    In Voyager I believe that they mentioned they use manifolds in the warp core to recover waste energy (one of the one's with the Malon, as they were explaining they have a relatively clean output and don't make trillions of tonnes of antimatter waste every year!). While not as efficient as direct output that would, yes, save you a lot of energy waste, so that figure of 5% might be a lot lower in real terms.

    It has to be said here, that the treaty of Algernon forbade cloaking devices.. It didn't specify sensor trickery, dampening or dispersal. As people have pointed out the Federation has used plenty of trickery to fool others sensors, and (fanon) several ships are supposed to have specialised devices to fool sensors, or indeed going on blackout: You don't need your warp core on to pootle around planetary orbit, just minimal power and a few thrusters.
    Ta Muchly

  10. #10
    Hiding in magnetic fields seems to be a popular one.
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  11. #11
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    Not to mention stealth coating the ship to minimize returns (not exactly cloaking technology). And now with the Fall of the Romulan Empire in the Expanded Universe, the Federation has tossed the Treaty of Algeron out the window and is starting to deploy some impressive tech
    A brave little theory, and actually quite coherent for a system of five or seven dimensions -- if only we lived in one.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BouncyCaitian View Post
    Not to mention stealth coating the ship to minimize returns (not exactly cloaking technology). And now with the Fall of the Romulan Empire in the Expanded Universe, the Federation has tossed the Treaty of Algeron out the window and is starting to deploy some impressive tech
    The stealth coating only affects returns from the ship itself. The heat signature of the ship will still be impressive. Heat sensors looking at a background of 3 Kelvin will see a starship standing out like a magnesium flare.

    For energy recovery, that barely works, and mainly by using thermocouples, IIRC (thermocouple, creates electricity between a hot and cold region). Space is just empty, not really cold. Plus, the energy being produced from that will have its own waste heat, and the heat still has to be gotten rid of.

    I don't know if the 5% waste already includes the recycling or not, that would be interesting.

    Still, the fact that the ship has to wait for speed of light sensors to detect heat signatures, vs FTL subspace sensors means it could be used on a semi-strategic scale (aka light-weeks).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Coalition View Post
    Space is just empty, not really cold. Plus, the energy being produced from that will have its own waste heat, and the heat still has to be gotten rid of.
    Unless you dump it into annooootheerrr dimeeeenssiiiioooon...
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