Crew Sizes

[IceGiant]

So I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are on crew sizes on Movie era ships that still serve in the NG, DS9 era. I assume that in real world navy ships that served in WWII had reductions due to automation and such when they still served in the 80's and 90's?

The Miranda is the only real reference for varrying crew sizes but also a bit unreliable. I'm thinking cutting the crew in half or so as a general rule. Specifically for the Constellation.

What do you guys do?

[IceGiant]

A follow up thought.

Would the Stargazer have been refurbished and put back into service?

The Hathaway was, so I'm thinking it's Possible they did the same thing with the Stargazer as the ship has alot of history.

[Captain Otto]

I'm not sure about this the Hathaway was put back into service just to serve for a war game - with only a skeleton crew and not a full complement. The Final Fate of the Hathaway remains unknown afaik.
But there is no telling if the ship was put back into service during the DW, probably along with the Stargazer. But since both are past their prime they will certainly not be "choice assignments"

[JALU3]

So I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are on crew sizes on Movie era ships that still serve in the NG, DS9 era. I assume that in real world navy ships that served in WWII had reductions due to automation and such when they still served in the 80's and 90's?

If you are talking about the Iowas . . . they still required there large crew sizes because certain things couldn't be automated.
In most systems it shows just how few crews are needed to operate the ship at full capacity. Skeleton crews are just that, bare essentials, no repairing, no maintanance, just fly, steer, and fire. As shown in the year of hell on VOY things get nasty quick with a skeleton crew.

Well, the question is were either vessel stricken from the Naval List? What amount of resources would be needed to bring them up to fighting capability . . . what type of tasks would be required of them . . . I can see a lot of older vessels brought back into commission to stand post in non-front areas to free up newer vessels to get to the line . . . I don't think you would see many in the thick of it . . . and the fact that you never saw a Soveriegn in the heat of it . . . boggles the mind.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Well, the Stargazer was reportedly heavily damaged. I'd guess they salvaged whatever they could from that ship and used the parts in shoring up another vessel with a more secure spaceframe, like the Hathaway. Or fused it with fifteen other nacelles and Excelsior pieces 'cause they needed some ablative picket ships.

and the fact that you never saw a Soveriegn in the heat of it . . . boggles the mind.

Well, there's probably like... two.

[Evan van Eyk]

I would not assume that the crew size would change to much. The automation we see in TNG did not very much change from what we saw in the Movie Era. Pretty much every bridge position is the same and computers were sophisticated in the 23rd century as well. I think the crew that is onboard is merely the crew you need to make sure that living beings are in control at all - a requirement that is also given in the 24th century. Most basic operations are done by computers in both eras.

[Voran]

I'm thinking you could look at (possibly) a 'similar role' type TNG ship that the TOS refit ship would be filling, get a guesstimate on the crew size of the TNG ship and maybe increase it by 10-25%?

If you're sending out a refit Connie into a battlezone, I don't know if Starfleet would really want to put a heavy crew into it, considering the ship is a little more fragile than its TNG counterparts. Like, I can't imagine those Excelsior class ships having full crew loads.

Hm...actually, maybe you could look at the Excelsior itself. See what its crew listing was for Movie Era, and see if there's any TNG/DS9+ stats for an Excelsior and see what the crew differences were, if any.

At any rate, I'm kinda thinking the crew reduction should be no more than 30 percent or so.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

And it's not like there's a huge crunch in terms of personnel, at least not in peacetime. The Federation has over 900 billion people in it.

Plus, if they can reduce crew needs on the vast majority of vessels, they'll probably use the space for civilian scientists, or the crew's families.

[JALU3]

I could understand the shortage of trained personnel in wartime, as was being shown by the increased promotion rate during DW. Furthermore, with the centralized training seen onscreen, without major satellite operations mentioned, the manpower requirements would be hard to meet . . . thus I think where this question is coming from.
However, without major upgrades, and thus precious time to get the spaceframe into the line . . . I can't see the crew requirements changing much . . . maybe even increase with the the increased maintanance needs due to age of the vessel (not to mention training in older systems that are not generally in use).

Veron. Point taken about the Excelsior . . . how does a NCC-2000 manpower needs compare to the Enterprise-B (with additional engineering hull superstructure), compared to the Lakota refit seen in Deep Space Nine.

As seen onscreen those old war horses took a beating, even with the periodic in-service upgrades . . . and very few seen onscreen . . . including the venerable and always active USS Hood (which appeared to be made out of teflon the way it survived the multiple engagements). . . had either of the upgrades of the later hull modifications.

You have to wonder though if some of those Mirandas were fully-automated fodder vessels . . . I mean they took a beating during the DW battle scenes . . . like redshirts they were! What a waste of 150odd starfleeters it would have been. Talking about Tin-can sailors!

Oh . . . and that's another thing. Like they say the new CGs are actually uprated DDs as they are not built on the traditional long and slender CA/CL hulls of old. Have we seen this as well in Starfleet? If so, where? Why?

Does the old standard run in the the Federation during the DW regarding the commision of the officers compared to today . . . where regardless of time out of service officer's can be recalled to active duty (or am I wrong about this policy). Maybe this is how Montgomery was reactivated . . . or so goes some references.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I could understand the shortage of trained personnel in wartime, as was being shown by the increased promotion rate during DW. Furthermore, with the centralized training seen onscreen, without major satellite operations mentioned, the manpower requirements would be hard to meet . . . thus I think where this question is coming from.

Well, how much time do the cadets actually spend on the SF campus during their training? Nog was back on DS9 after, like, a year, and there's probably tons of facilities with cadets off of Earth (like Relva VII or Station Earhart, not to mention ship duty). The Federation would want cadets to get as wide a range of experiences and they can, after all.

However, without major upgrades, and thus precious time to get the spaceframe into the line . . . I can't see the crew requirements changing much . . . maybe even increase with the the increased maintanance needs due to age of the vessel (not to mention training in older systems that are not generally in use).

Well, unless you have a bunch of Axanar on board who remember the dude who designed them...

You have to wonder though if some of those Mirandas were fully-automated fodder vessels . . . I mean they took a beating during the DW battle scenes . . . like redshirts they were! What a waste of 150odd starfleeters it would have been. Talking about Tin-can sailors!

Many of the Miranda-class ships we saw on TNG (the lantree, the brattain) didn't have crew numbers that cracked three digits. Those were transports and science vessels, but assuming that they're outfitted specifically for a fleet action, keeping non-emergency repair personnel off the ship (and the ones who remain in clusters right next to the escape pods) would mitigate casualties. And who needs an A&A officer when your ship's current mission is 'blow up that ship over thar'?

Does the old standard run in the the Federation during the DW regarding the commision of the officers compared to today . . . where regardless of time out of service officer's can be recalled to active duty (or am I wrong about this policy).

McCoy was recalled to active service by Kirk (through Nogura) in TMP.

[JALU3]

Well, how much time do the cadets actually spend on the SF campus during their training? Nog was back on DS9 after, like, a year, and there's probably tons of facilities with cadets off of Earth (like Relva VII or Station Earhart, not to mention ship duty). The Federation would want cadets to get as wide a range of experiences and they can, after all.

I would imagine that his was a special case, possibly even requested by name by CAPT Sisko to the commendant.
Sure they have field training, however I wouldn't imagine that actually consuming more than 3 months out of the year. But with technology being what it is I am suprised that there aren't more satillite facilities or distant-courses for those on special assignments.
I would still imagine that the STANDARD cadet would remain at the Presideo for at least 3/4 of his/her time while in the acadamy. Except for Midshipmen . . . I don't see a lot of "3LT" around.

Well, unless you have a bunch of Axanar on board who remember the dude who designed them...

How many of them would come out swinging for the Federation? Haven't seen any serving in starfleet.

Many of the Miranda-class ships we saw on TNG (the lantree, the brattain) didn't have crew numbers that cracked three digits. Those were transports and science vessels, but assuming that they're outfitted specifically for a fleet action, keeping non-emergency repair personnel off the ship (and the ones who remain in clusters right next to the escape pods) would mitigate casualties. And who needs an A&A officer when your ship's current mission is 'blow up that ship over thar'?

Given that those vessels were in continuous commission, probably went through several refits (thus the automation), and weren't combat oriented . . . that would support their small crew size. Even modern day major sized merchant vessel operate on crews numbering below the triple digets and some even less then 50.

McCoy was recalled to active service by Kirk (through Nogura) in TMP.

Well that answers that question. Forgot about the Return of Spock.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

I would still imagine that the STANDARD cadet would remain at the Presideo for at least 3/4 of his/her time while in the acadamy. Except for Midshipmen . . . I don't see a lot of "3LT" around.

We've seen the Enterprise staffed mostly by cadets, and a bunch of different cadet ships (the J-class training ship, the Valiant).

How many of them would come out swinging for the Federation? Haven't seen any serving in starfleet.

*shrug.* They're Federation members in ICON/CODA, but it's one example of the kind of differences that could affect these things. Shepherding a flock of doddering Zakdorn around the hulk of the USS Raging Queen trying to find the right plasma conduit before they ship out for Operation Return sounds like a B-plot.

[JALU3]

We've seen the Enterprise staffed mostly by cadets, and a bunch of different cadet ships (the J-class training ship, the Valiant).

True, but those were special cases, as they were Training Ships, which due to increasing operating cost are rarer now adays then before. And even then they had senior cadre to step in when shit hit the fan.