It CAN happen here.

[Dan Stack]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by First of Two:
I hope that this isn't TOO controversial for this board. If it is.. sorry.

This is just @#$%ing revolting. And practically in my backyard. Something must be done.

http://news.excite.com/news/r/010328...ion-burning-dc</font>

Sorry to quote the original post, but an interesting question occurs to me...

Don't they have a right to burn all the books they want to?

Let me explain. I think what they are doing is foolish. I think it is close-minded. And I have no problem with mocking them. But when you say "something must be done", what would you propose? Is not Freedom of Expression rather sacred in American law? And shouldn't that include the right to make a complete fool of yourself, to do close-minded things?

Now, if that something is expose them as close-minded, then I agree with that. After all, Freedom of Expression is not Freedom from Consequence.

[calguard66]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Homer:

This is sick, and should stop. BUT unfortunately I also am a student of Voltaire, I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it. I can't shut this guy up without someone shutting me up. Free sppech, a double edged sword.</font>

For me it is the difference between trying to convice somebody of your point of view, that: "Harry Potter is bad and you shouldn't read it" and actually destroying the books so nobody can decide for themselves. I know it was just a symbolic burning, and there are plenty of Potter and other "banned" titles out there...

But the idea of the actual destruction, the symbolism of _preventing_ anyone from making up their own mind makes me ill.

It's a half step above (better than) flag burning...

And yeah, they CAN do it... free speech has been extened to certain actions. But don't be suprised, if I witness it, that I'll explore extending free speech to sticking a size 13 boot up somebody's a@@.


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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[This message has been edited by calguard66 (edited 04-02-2001).]

[First of Two]

Yes, it's sort of within their First Amendment rights.. assuming they bought and paid for the books and actually owned them... I'm none to assured of that, though. The fundies down here will steal anything they don't like. (Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" disappeared last year.. presumably because it had "Demon" in the title, but possibly because it was also a work against superstition)

And that's fine, even though it shows them to be stupid (denouncing them as such is almost redundant.) When I talked about 'something being done' I had in my mind an image of appearing in that town, speaking to the people, and starting a public campaign against 'a vile book, being taught to young children, corrupting their young minds, full of genocide, war, murder, incest, child murder, disembowelment, etc. etc.' And attempting to enlist the help of the congregation there... before revealing that I'm talking about the Bible.

Nothing beyond that. I'm not normally too confrontational.

On the other hand, if folks like that show up here and try to take my library's books away... I'll be very much inclined to answer their First Amendment with my Second.

[Diamond]

So THAT's what happened!

Two years ago, I tried to borrow Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" from our friendly local public library. It was in the catalog, but I couldn't find it on the shelves. I looked and looked through it's dewy decimal neighbors, which were all about UFOs and other pseudoscience of exactly the type Sagen talks about increasing your scepicism of in the book I was looking for.

Anyway, I finally asked the librarians and they told me that books from that section (UFOs and such) were frequently stolen. I was sad, but thought it ironic that some UFO nut had lifted Sagan's book and got the opposite of what was expected!

Now I realize that it was far more likely that some religous zealot stole it so that I couldn't read about enhancing my sceptical thinking skills. Thinking for oneself and questioning authority is just too dangerous.

Thanks for pointing that out, First.

[This message has been edited by Diamond (edited 04-03-2001).]

[Centurion Noctis]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It reminds me of an argument I once got in with a person of that kind of mindset; she claimed it was true that "if you sit a baby in front of violent movies, he will grow up to be violent and a killer."

My reply was, "Then since I enjoy reading Garfield comic strips, I'm going to have the urge to eat lasagna and kick dogs off of tables."</font>

Youre rigth... thats a simplification... But the fact remain that United States produce a lot of Horror Movie (... and really stupid movie like Zombie, Hannibal, Sreams)... and the crime in United States is really high...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"if you sit a baby in front of violent movies, he will grow up to be violent and a killer."</font>

I dont think its fair... but what kind of sick society will create such movie... (oh, and dont say its cause we let down Religion, thats not the case of the US, and still its not the safer country)



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Im french so I can pronounce Jean-Luc Picard

[Diamond]

Centurion,

The fact remains that the United States produces a lot of ice cream... and the crime rate of the United States is really high.

[/Sarcasm]

Correlation is not causation.

The answer is more complex than just saying society is "sick." Maybe people like adrenaline rushes. Maybe seeing bad things (horror) happen to other people causes catharsis, the same thing that made the greek tragedies remembered. Maybe it harkens to our primal memories of stories told around the primeval campfire. Maybe some people ARE sick, or many people are occasionally sick.

Or maybe all genres of art has bad stuff and good stuff. There's examples of great horror literature and movies, and there's examples of terrible renaissance paintings.

The causes of crime are a lot more complex than just that there are people who enjoy different movies than you do. In fact, it's not a simplification at all, your statement's conclusions are not at all connected to the premise!

[This message has been edited by Diamond (edited 04-03-2001).]

[calguard66]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Centurion Noctis:
I dont think its fair... but what kind of sick society will create such movie... (oh, and dont say its cause we let down Religion, thats not the case of the US, and still its not the safer country)
</font>

Violence in the movies and on TV has been increasing for the last 10 years, violent crim has been decreasing for the last 10 years...

Children have less acess to firearms now than when my father was a child, yet youth violent crime is higher now than then...

Related facts don't always correlate, and when they do the correlation is often counter-intuitive.

For example, in my father's day a gun was a tool, rather than a symbol of power and manliness... children were exposed to firearms from a young age, and they held no mystique or mystery.

Now, firearms are evil symbols of power and rebellion. So kids get guns, and shoot at each other... just like they smoke, drink and do drugs. Because by doing so they are doing something forbidden, and that's cool.



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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[Centurion Noctis]

I never said religion = violence.
I just said religious country are not the more peaceful...

I am just tire of the "kid let down god so they embrace violence" argument...

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Im french so I can pronounce Jean-Luc Picard

[calguard66]

If anything religious fervor often BREEDS violence. Religion is inherently exclusionary, and serves to form inferior/ superior perceptions... believer vs non-believer, good vs evil, faithful vs infidel.

More blood has been spilt for religious reasons than any single other cause.

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[Diamond]

I agree with you there, Centurion. But... neither Calguard nor I talked about religion. Rather, we were saying that there was no connection between horror movies and crime, as you implied.

We hear the same flawed argument you have heard, "Kids don't worship the same god I do, that's why things are bad." But we also get told, "Kids don't watch the types of movies we think they should, that's why things are bad."

Both arguements have the same logical flaw, and the same appeal to certain mindsets.

[Centurion Noctis]

Agreed...

The whole religion thing start with my little atheist comment

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">More blood has been spilt for religious reasons than any single other cause.</font>

haaaaa, the sweet smell of logic

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Im french so I can pronounce Jean-Luc Picard

[Diamond]

My mistake. Calguard must have been writing his reply at the same time I was.

[Dan Stack]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by calguard66:
If anything religious fervor often BREEDS violence. Religion is inherently exclusionary, and serves to form inferior/ superior perceptions... believer vs non-believer, good vs evil, faithful vs infidel.

More blood has been spilt for religious reasons than any single other cause.

</font>

Y'know, I've heard that statement alot regarding more blood being spilled... Is there any proof to it? I'm not talking about, "well, duh, open your eyes", I'm talking hard fast numbers. For example, 61 people are listed as having died as a result of World War II. (http://www.stokesey.demon.co.uk/wwii/casualty.html)

Stalin is viewed to have killed tens of millions as a result of his purges, either directly or indirectly.

[Roy Cowan]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Stack:

Y'know, I've heard that statement alot regarding more blood being spilled... Is there any proof to it?
</font>

I don't know about more blood being spilled, but religious causes have spurred a lot of violence...as have many other causes, such as politics, nationality, lebensraum, favorite sports teams, etc.

A common cause can do wonders in bringing people together to accomplish wonders that an individual might not even fully conceive much less carry out. Unfortunately, some of those "wonders" can turn out to be horrors that begar the imagination, even if the cause itself is noble.

I think in the end it is not so much a question of the cause itself as the attitudes surrounding it. When someone automatically assumes that a particular binding principle such as religion is inherently evil, it is the first step in becoming as dogmatically persecutory as the groups being criticized.

Just so everyone understands my views here, I'm not a religious person by any means, but I have known people of a religious persuasion that were horribly prejudicial and intolerant, and some that were very generous and open-minded. The same goes for any other lifeview, be it political philosophy, cultural beliefs, or whatever else.

I'm not suggesting that different beliefs and philosophies shouldn't be questioned. Quite the contrary -- any view that cannot withstand criticism deserves to be skewered. I do think that blanket condemnations are just another way of avoiding questioning.

-- Roy

[First of Two]

Religious conflicts, or conflicts in which religion played a large factor?

The various genocidal episodes in the Bible, where the Israelites annihilate entire cities, if it is to be believed.
Everything in the Middle East today and for the last zillion years.
The Crusades.
The Inquisitions.
The Witchhunts.
The various European and American persecutions of everybody from the first Protestants to the Quakers in the World Wars
Catholics vs Protestants in Ireland
Sikhs vs Hindus in India
Much of the strife in Indonesia, the Balkans, etc.
The destruction of various native peoples in Europe, Africa, Australia, and the Americas.
Today's killings of abortion doctors and certain 'undesirables' like Matthew Shepherd.
The "Aryan Nation" type churches, and the concept of a 'white Christian America'
Lots more than I've mentioned here, I'm sure. I never even touched China's history.

Yes, it's not a pretty list.