It CAN happen here.

[Dan Stack]

Roy,

You summed up my attitude perfectly. My religious views sound like they are 180 degrees from yours - and that's ok. I too hate blanket statements. I've seen some religious organizations feed the homeless, give them clothing, help them stay drug and alcohol free, help them get the skills we take for granted that are needed for a minimum wage job. And I've seen some condemn women for wearing pants, consider members of other religions damned to hell. Heck I've seen some people do both...

And I've met athiests who are comfortable with my beliefs. And I've met those who won't leave me and "my childish stupidity alone".

[Dan Stack]

"Everything in the Middle East" Wow. Does that include invention of the number zero? Those barbarians... I think it happened in the last zillion years.

I love blanket statements...

[Centurion Noctis]

Atrocities and destruction that christian made on the name of the god are numerous...

- The Spanish inquisition (As well as other inquisition)
- All the crusade
- The actual war in jerusalem. In fact, Jerusalem is one of the most religious place in the world and i dont think theres another place that can chanllenge its supremacy on the throne of atrocities.

And we are not speaking of all the knowledge that Christian religion annihilate to protect its power ! Religion rarely create things, it destroy peaple and confine thought

------------------
Im french so I can pronounce Jean-Luc Picard

[Cdr Scot II]

I grew up in the west of Scotland, which as anyone from 'round there can tell you, is a pretty sectarian place - not as bad as Northern Ireland, where they shoot people just for being another creed of the same religion, but bad enough that it brought me to the conclusion that for religion the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

Sure, religion can inspire works of nobility (many charity organisations, for example) or grandeur and beauty (just about anything painted, sculpted or built during the Italian Rennaisance, the Great Pyramids, even those Buddhist statues the Taliban blew up), but it is also a safe place for small-minded individuals who would rather that someone did their thinking for them and told them what was right and what was wrong, and who was okay and who wasn't. The tribal instinct is strong, and the exclusive nature of many religions only reinforces it. This seems more important to most in my experience than the underlying tenets of charity and mercy.

As GK Chesterton once said: "Christianity has not been tried and found hard, it has been found hard and not tried." Ditto for most other religions...

[Anarchy Bob]

Hey Centurion, my good fellow. We have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. But we produce shows like "2 frères" and "Fortier." Don't you agree those are way harsher than what we get from american teevee?

[Dave]

Many of the aforementioned conflicts were political in nature, i.e. a desire for land or power. Religion was not necessarily the reason, but simply the flag flown. Rome and the European monarchies did not send the Crusades because of their devotion to God, but in order to gain land, wealth, and to bring Eastern Christianity into political submission. In order to sell the idea to the peasantry (whose labor made the enterprise possible), it had to become a spiritual cause. The Jews, Muslims, and Eastern churches lived in relative (albeit uneasy) peace under Muslim rule until the Crusades.

Cmdr Scott is right, the tribal instinct is strong and religion is used to justify exclusivity, and can cause it, but it doesn't always cause it. Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and the Shining Path were attempting to establish a-religious societies, but they had to kill millions to do it. For some reason, establishing an a-religious society in Russia required the deaths of thousands of Orthodox clergy.

If religion has caused most of the world's bloodshed, then if I ever become homeless, I will refuse to eat at soup kitchens sponsored by religious groups and only eat at those sponsored solely by atheists.

[First of Two]

Hm. Somehow I was of the understanding that the number zero was 'discovered' closer to India than to the Middle East...

But I could be wrong.
(Now THAT'S an irreligious statement!)

My problem isn't so much that religion was and is used by corrupt people to sieze power and commit atrocities... as it is with the fact that so MANY of the 'decent, upstanding, god-fearing people' went along with it.

Like all those people who were willing to harbor and aid that guy who shot that doctor in front of his family.

Like the Southern ministers who preached that the story of Noah and Ham made slavery good and moral.

Like people who gave Televangelist Oral Roberts money when he locked himself in a tower and said that God told him he needed to raise so many million dollars or God was gonna kill him.

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited 04-04-2001).]

[Jabara Eris]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anarchy Bob:
Hey Centurion, my good fellow. We have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. But we produce shows like "2 frères" and "Fortier." Don't you agree those are way harsher than what we get from american teevee?

</font>

If memory serves me correctly, it's you Canucks who put out the TV show "The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne." If so, how come its influence on society hasn't led you guys to start creating mole machines, jet packs and other cool Steampunk devices like that?

This whole thread takes me back to my college days in the mid-80s. My mom (bless her heart) was a devout religious conservative who unfortunately got a lot of her spiritual knowledge from TV evangelists.

One day she very seriously pulled me aside and asked me if I was playing Dungeons and Dragons.

I told her no and explained that I didn't like the unrealistic rules system. I further explained that I preferred games such as Call of Cthulhu and Stalking the Night Fantastic.

She let out a relieved sigh and told me that she was glad to hear that because she had heard that Dungeons and Dragons was Satanic. As long as I wasn't playing Dungeons and Dragons, she told me, anything else would be fine with her.

Sad but true.

I grew up in a devoutly Christian family in rural Texas. I recall one day, as a confused teenager, going out behind the barn and setting fire to an album by Alice Cooper that I had won in a radio station promotion. A visiting preacher had told our congregation that when a group of students had burned all their rock albums, they had heard screams of demons erupting from the flames as the vinyl began to melt, and I wanted to hear that for myself. It was more a scientific experiment than anything else, and a successful one -- I conclusively did not hear any screams, so I decided that the preacher was the victim of a hoax.

In my opinion, the main problem with a lot of people who burn books on a regular basis is that, at best, they fail to learn -- or fail to even desire to learn -- from their experiences. At worst they're elitist hate mongers. More typically, they're just media hounds who want attention, like the Colorado preacher who recently had somebody from his congregation come into a church service and -- get this -- pull out a real, metal sword, which was used to skewer a stack of Pokemon cards. The presentation was so ridiculous that it achieved the desired effect -- it got the local media (both newspapers and television) to run stories about the church's zeal, giving the preacher a lot of free publicity and probably causing the church pews to overflow with new members.

Sorta brings to mind the DS9 episode "In the Hands of the Prophets," in which the station's school was bombed rather than have it allow Keiko teach the theory that the Prophets were not divine, and that the wormhole was not a portal to heaven. I personally don't agree with Keiko's teachings, but that's just my opinion ... Although it was eventually shown that Vedek Winn orchestrated the bombing just to kill an innocent rival -- Vedek Bareil -- she couldn't have done it without the help of at least one misguided religious zealot who fell under her sway.

That's the real danger with the "book burning" kind of mentality -- it encourages people to turn to destruction when faced with differing viewpoints. Eventually, such people may decide to branch out from burning books and start taking other actions -- such as harassing neighborhood pagans, burning down churches used by followers of other religions, or clubbing homosexuals to death.

When talking about all the religious wars over the centuries, it's critically important for people to realize there's a big difference between religion and spirituality. Jesus himself was opposed to religion and frequently spoke out against the Pharisees, what with their loud public praying on street corners or showy giving of pennace to local charities. Religion discourages people from thinking for themselves, and instead encourages people to let someone else tell them what to believe. But the truly spiritual -- the ones who honestly seek the divine for themselves -- are usually to be commended, for they are often the ones who quietly change the world.

Some members of the clergy push people toward unthinking religion, while others encourage people to search for truth on their own and find their own spiritual paths. Most fall somewhere in between, so you can't make any blanket statements about what's "typical" when it comes to those who choose to stand in front of a congregation on a regular basis.

Think Vedek Winn versus Vedek Bareil, and you'll see what I mean.

Sorry for rambling, but I wanted to put in my two cents worth.




------------------
Voka a Bentel
(May you walk with the Prophets),

Eris

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Rana naz’g ol resu ji joreen."
(It is the unknown that defines our existence)
-- Bajoran proverb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Centurion Noctis]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. But we produce shows like "2 frères" and "Fortier."</font>

We're not speaking of thing like horror movies or action movies where violence is free... thats 2 show that speak out AGAINST violente...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Some members of the clergy push people toward unthinking religion, while others encourage people to search for truth on their own and find their own spiritual paths. Most fall somewhere in between, so you can't make any blanket statements about what's "typical" when it comes to those who choose to stand in front of a congregation on a regular basis</font>

Yeaa... but religion rarely help science and understanding of the surrounding world. It try to simplify complex systems so everyone can understand it. I dont think it help anything that way


------------------
Im french so I can pronounce Jean-Luc Picard

[DaveTalley]

Damn, I should drop by more often

1) burning books, yes I personally believe its wrong but look at it this way, they were paid for, and JK Rowling will gladly take her percentage :-)

2)War, military history is one of my favorite subjects, and most wars up till the last century have been at least in part religiously motivated
specifically the crusades, yes alot of younger sons of nobility went to carve out a chunk of land for themselves, but they wouldnt have gone that far a distance if they werent being promised automatic entry into heaven for doing it

3)Dan & Roy
yep , although I am an Athiest, I will fight for your right to worship the god or gods of your choice freely, as long as you recognize my right to not believe :-)

4)Jabara Eris
what part o Texas?? always looking for more Texans to talk too :-)

Dave Talley
New Braunfels TX

[Dan Stack]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
3)Dan & Roy
yep , although I am an Athiest, I will fight for your right to worship the god or gods of your choice freely, as long as you recognize my right to not believe :-)
</font>

Oh, not only do I respect your right not to believe, I would fight to defend that right. I can't stand intolerance, from whatever the source, even if it is from people whose views I agree with.

[Centurion Noctis]

Tolerete such mentally repressive systems is hard... really hard. Even harder when you know all the scientific research that was stop by religion

------------------
Im french so I can pronounce Jean-Luc Picard

[Roy Cowan]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DaveTalley:

3)Dan & Roy
yep , although I am an Athiest, I will fight for your right to worship the god or gods of your choice freely, as long as you recognize my right to not believe :-)
</font>

Just as a point of clarification, I am an agnostic atheist (agnostic being classically defined as the view that theistic beliefs -- whatever they may be -- are a matter of metaphysical belief and not of physical evidence).

My concern in all of this is that I see many people doing to religion precisely what they claim makes religion so horrible -- oversimplifying it and then condemning it out of hand.

Yes, many terrible acts have been committed in the name of religion (and that means all religions, not just the traditional Catholic whipping-boys, no matter that often they deserved to be whipped). By the same token, there are religious systems and organizations that encourage critical thought, inspire and uplift people. Many of the world's great thinkers have been punished for contradicting dogma, and many have found inspiration and support in their religions.

It's also worthwhile to note that every other existing cause has been guilty of motivating or justifying (or both at the same time) horrible atrocities. Nationalism ("My country, right or wrong"), philosophy ("Some people are naturally inferior, and deserve to be treated accordingly."), socioeconomic theories ("We'd recall those defective Pintos, but it's more cost-effective to pay off the next-of-kin." "Our products can't be sold in the U.S. because they're too toxic? Dump in the third-world countries."), politics (It's practically de regeur to start executing intellectuals and anyone with money when you have a military coup.), science ("Non-whites are racially inferior, and these tests prove it.") and so on. Hell, Star Trek has inspired some groups to organize and undertake charitable events following the principle espoused in the tv series; the Heaven's Gate cultists also found inspiration in Trek.

Adolf Hitler was a devout christian, but Idi Amin and Pol Pot didn't need religion to justify equally babarbaric acts. Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Loius Farrakhan were both inspired by religion, though it took them both to very different places.

I think the simple fact here is that any group can fall victim to these problems. Membership in a group can provide that sense of belonging and social unity that is an integral part of our nature as human beings. Unfortunately, being part of a group often comes part and parcel with a greater sense of distance with those who aren't a part of the group.

Why that is, I'm not entirely sure. I suspect part of it has to do with bilateral symmetry. Our bodies have two sides, one of which (usually the right) is dominant -- right-handedness for example. This split has become reflected in the way we see the world. "Right" is synonymous with good and with priviledge (I have the right to ___), whereas left-handed people were often accused of various evil traits -- the word sinister is derived from sinestre, which means "left-handed" in French (IIRC the language correctly).

How many times do you hear the phrase, "There's two types of people in the world..."? Why does dualism come up so often in our thinking (black and white, good and bad, yes and no), so often with one side being superior.

From this, I believe, flows a natural inclination to see one side as the proper side, and the other as a threat ("If you're not for us, you're against us."). This is particularly true when a particular idea has become part of one's identity, whether it's your nationality, your ethnicity, your religious beliefs, or even your sports team (which has caused all sorts of riots and even sparked a war in Honduras when their soccer team lost a match in 1979).

In summary, it seems to me that the problem isn't strictly religion, but rather those practices and principles in ANY group or cause that make it acceptible to act in a way that promotes me at the expense of you. Assuming that anything religious is automatically irrational and intolerant is to take the first step toward becoming that which one reviles.

-- Roy

P.S. I wanted to add that I think everyone's been pretty cool about discussing this topic without going of on mindless flame wars or anything like that. It's impressive, given that this can be fairly provocative for a lot of people. Keep up the good work!

[Dan Stack]

Roy, I agree pretty completely - I think most problems with religion are actually the same problems one finds with any organization of sufficient size.

What I find somewhat concerning is how "sound-bited" our culture has become. For example, everyone knows the story of Gallileo being excommunicated. But, do people know that the pope actually originally supported his work, with full knowledge of what it meant? What happened? Well, a few members of the clergy who were high up and had the pope's ear really didn't like what Gallileo was doing. And they used their influence to persuade the pope to take action against Gallileo.

Does this make what happened to Gallielo all better? No, of course not. What was done to him was wrong, any way you view it. But the truth is often more complicated than what a sound-bite allows. The situation resembles what one might in any complex organization, with rival factions fighting for power. Look at the recent US election - everyone, from the lowest clerk to the supreme court was viewed as corrupt, be they democrat or republican. "Of course they'll count dimpled chads for Gore, they're evil democrats." "Of course the court will decide for Bush, they were appointed by evil republicans." Are all democrats evil? They want to take all our money and give it to the crack-addict baby factories to get their votes. They want to sell the Lincoln Bedroom and give away technology to the Chinese. Are all republicans evil? They want to give all the money to the richest one percent. All they want is money from tobacco companies.

(Y'know, that could make for a neat alternate Earth - what if Gallileo's research continued without all the controversy...)

[John Adams]

Atheists? I thought it wasn’t “cool” to be atheist anymore (tongue-in-cheek –I am just kidding)? Everybody does seem to want to be “spiritual” in some form or fashion nowadays. Take a look at the best sellers in the bookstores. You will discover that many of them (if not most) are “spiritual” in nature. I can’t deny that religion has been used to repress, persecute, and do many other horrible things to people. “Evil” clergy do seem to make sinister foes in novels and movies! But humans will use whatever they decide to use to kill and oppress each other. All of human existence is about belief. Even science, especially in our post-modern world, realizes that all knowledge is based on belief (hypothesis, if you will). Today’s rock-solid scientific foundations may be tomorrow’s good laugh as we learn even more about ourselves and the universe. Science, education, and good government can be wonderful and very important things - but they do not hold the answers to all of life’s questions or problems.

That and $1.00 will get you a soda in the suburbs!