Is the Force simply Psionics?

[Owen E Oulton]

Is that like trying to scientifically define the term "magic"?

Actually, most Western esoterica since the Renaissance includes fairly detailed attempts to do just that

Exactly. How many volumes of commentary on the Qabala are there? And that's just one branch...

[Owen E Oulton]

Part of the problem, I think, is that we've only seen bits of explanation aimed at Padawan learners and outsiders couched in symbolism. We see it all the time with DMs in D&D games. They insist magic must be mysterious and unknowable, but that's the line of patter the magicians hand out to the uninitiated. Between magicians themselves, they would have a very clear idea of how magic works. Jedi would be similar. A certain level of obsfucation is to be expected with outsiders. This is both to keep the "dark" types out, and to keep a level of prestige for the knowledge and power of the Jedi.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

Jedi would be similar. A certain level of obsfucation is to be expected with outsiders. This is both to keep the "dark" types out, and to keep a level of prestige for the knowledge and power of the Jedi.

On the other hand, what the initiates might take as obfuscatory symbolism might make perfect, obvious sense to someone who shares the experience of the one who attempts to describe it. Zen koans are the obvious example. With telepaths such as the Jedi, being able to simply give someone the memory of the experience in order to understand it would make education that much easier. Conversely, it would make them seem even more clannish and strange to outsiders.

[Alex]

It's all the same to me. Yes, each setting has its own favorite collections of powers. Star Trek loves empathy and telepathy--connecting minds directly. Star Wars loves physical enhancement and mind tricks--mind influencing the environment and other minds. D&D loves altering the physical world and its rules (fireballs, flight, healing injuries, etc). But there is a lot of overlap between each of the three (psi, force, magic) and it's perfectly reasonable to assume they are just different subsets of the same all-encompassing power. People learn different aspects of the same power based on training, culture, and exposure. The GM is free to make them separate if that suits his universe (a universe with two or three or more types of currently unexplained power) but there is sufficient connection for him to assume it is all different sides of the same die.

And in the end does it matter? It's not the definition of the design of the die that makes us want to play games, its the outcome of rolling the die! Just play it how it seems most fun to the players.

[tonyg]

I think the Force is as much a relgion as a science, and like most relgions probably accepts some things on faith. The whole "energy field made up of all living beings" is not quite a scientific approach.

On the other hand, there are a lot of similarities between the Force and Vulcan mysticisim/mental abilities. FOr example, the fact that Vulcans "know" God exists, would match up with Vulcans being "Force Senstive" and having knowledge of the Force.

Even the "Will of the Force" could be explained as the effect of a mass subconscious.


So I suppose you could rationalize the Force as PSI if you want to, especially in Star Trek. But as far as what Lucas was going for, I'd say no.


And I'm not thrilled o the idea of a Jedi getting a booster shot of "kironite" (or whatever it what in Plato's Stepchildren) and suddenly getting his Force powers boosted.

[Rotwang]

This is a topic I am interested in and have considered frequently. I have many of the WEG Star Wars supplements and have been converting some of the data to LUG Star Trek. I have thus far only converted many of the races to LUG. I haven't converted any of the Force information into my Star Trek campaign yet. I was thinking a full crossover and having Force as a sixth attribute, but I have decided to have the Force is just psionics.

My main issues in this choice is in how do I deal with the Jedi Code and the Darkside. In the traditional Star Wars viewpoint, any abuse of one's Force power could lead the subjects a form of spiritual possession called the Darkside. The official mechanics that WEG uses is that when a Force sensitive character does something evil or uses his Force powers for self-serving purposes he receives a Darkside Point and once he accumulates 6 Darkside Points he succumbs to the Darkside and his character becomes an NPC villain. Also, as he gets closer to 6 Darkside Points the more corrupt the character should be portrayed. According to official rules, characters who consistently use their powers to cheat at cards or to get an advantage in trade negotiations is on a slippery slope that could turn him into a traitorous, genocidal madman.

In my campaign, I want more of a Star Trek feel than a Star Wars one, and I feel the above interpretation would take my campaign in directions I do not want to go. To keep the concepts of Jedi Philosophy and the Lightside and Darkside of the Force in the game without losing the Trekkian feel, I chose to employ alternate definitions of these concepts. The abuse of psionics is potentially corrupting but no more so than abuse of any other source of personal power, and the Jedi Code is just yet another philosophical discipline to avoid that abuse much like the Vulcan Code of purging one's emotions or the Betazoid's Code of the Rights of Sentients. Violating these codes does not necessarily make on evil, and someone that uses special powers for personal gain may be viewed as questionable by most Federation member cultures, but he won't automatically be on the road to becoming an acolyte of Darth Vader.

A little off the subject, I did come up with the idea of an additional attribute called Magic, but it's purpose would only be used in virtual reality fantasy roleplaying games played on Holodecks in TNG era games or on VR consoles in TOS era games. I don't have the mechanics created yet though. I do have an idea on how Star Trek characters would play roleplaying games if anyone is interested.