Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21

Thread: Is the Force simply Psionics?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,490

    Is the Force simply Psionics?

    As some of you may know, I'm doing a Star Wars/Star Trek crossover game. One thing I'd like to know is how others feel on the Force vs. Psionics debate. It is my feeling that the Force is simply high-level Psionics. This is going to come up over and over, since Lord and Lady Vader (!) will be facing the characters, who include an Empathic Tellarite PC and a Haliian NPC. One other character will be pursuing a skill of non-Psionic Willpower-based Psi screen (this is ICON). Tal the Tellarite has already faced Lord Vader and defied the old "Jedi Mind Trick", but that could be ruled a fluke, since he rolled a 6 on the Drama Die and used a Courage Point. I've also ruled that Vader has a High enough Force power to levitate and virtually fly, albeit not very fast - no Neo-like "Superman" act. I've got the first-edition D6 SW from WEG games, but nothing else, and am on a severly limited budget, so "buy THIS" is not a useful option. Is there anything on the web that would help me?

  2. #2
    I think it'd be interesting to take Yoda at his word: the Force is some sort of energy field created by the existence and interaction of lifeforms, one which has an extradimensional element that allows for superluminal telepathy and some sort of apprehension of the four-dimensional shape of events-as-object, as well as possibly having a will of its own, however schizoid it may be. The Light Side would be the Force as fostered by harmonious interactions, and the Dark Side would be the Force as fostered by dominance and consumption of other life. Both would be natural, but one is obviously more preferable.

    Biological telepathy, i.e. that of Vulcans, Haliians etc. would be different, in that it is essentially a bio-radio.
    Portfolio | Blog Currently Running: Call of Cthulhu, Star Trek GUMSHOE Currently Playing: DramaSystem, Swords & Wizardry

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    San Francisco, CA - Starfleet HQ
    Posts
    97
    On the surface, I see the Force being more like Magic in that characters are channeling and manipulating an exterior power. Psionics is channeling the mental power within.

    But if you look at the Psionic abilities outlined in the TNG Player's Guide, so many of those seem just like the Force powers (especially non-combat) in the SW films. So I would stick with that system and run with it. You will likely need to compose a different and/or additional set of powers for Force users that are not necessarily available to those in from the Trek universe. You might find the d20 SRD helpful (link to hypertext version).
    __________________________
    Robert -- San Francisco, CA
    Visit my blog, Groknard - A Retrospective of Star Trek RPGs

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Bremen, Germany
    Posts
    1,924
    Considering that the force sensitivity is defined by the midi-chlorians (Yack!), it still might be simulated as psionics. While the simple "Psi" is maybe a little too scientific for describing the mysterious force, the interaction of the characters with the midi-chlorians and by that the manipulation of the Force could be a form of telepathy.
    Qui-Gon only says that the midi-chlorians are communicating with the Jedi, not in what way and the whole idea was never again mentioned.
    However generally I don't think that the Force could not be ruled out with the help of the Psi-rules. After all in the Player's guide (do you have it?) there are rules for telekinesis, fire-bolts (=force lightning?), etc. And the force is for the open minded, or works best on the weak-minded. Being psionic might point to a mindfulness that equals force-sensitivity...
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,490
    Y'see ,it's my contention that magic is simply Psionics, and the Force is similar... All have the same characteristics - those with the capabilitiy can influence reality with mental effort. The "midi-chlorian" bit simply reinforces my feeling. It implies that the Jedi recognised a scientific cause for these effects.My reading on mediaeval magic shows that magicians similarly believed that magic was a natural phenomenon with knowable rules that conformed to scientific reality as they understood it. It's the difference in approach - Artistic versus mysitcal versus technological ways of doing things. To use a modern buzz-word, it's a paradigm shift. There's noth intrinsically different between any of them.

  6. #6
    Look at the abilities evinced by Gary Mitchell in the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and I think you'll have your answer. Psionics and Force use seem fairly similar to me.
    “In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations.”

    -- Great Law of the Iroquois Confederacy

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    heath ohio
    Posts
    163
    I would think the force is more like magic from the fact is decride as energy surrounding , correcting and holding everything together . psionic is a power coming with in one's body .

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Kaunakakai, Molokai, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    4,020
    Quote Originally Posted by Owen E Oulton View Post
    Y'see ,it's my contention that magic is simply Psionics, and the Force is similar... All have the same characteristics - those with the capabilitiy can influence reality with mental effort. The "midi-chlorian" bit simply reinforces my feeling. It implies that the Jedi recognised a scientific cause for these effects.My reading on mediaeval magic shows that magicians similarly believed that magic was a natural phenomenon with knowable rules that conformed to scientific reality as they understood it. It's the difference in approach - Artistic versus mysitcal versus technological ways of doing things. To use a modern buzz-word, it's a paradigm shift. There's noth intrinsically different between any of them.
    One could argue that what then constituted as magic power or phenomenon (e.g., casting fireballs) is being redefined -- albeit fringe -- scientifically as psionic occurence in the modern world.

    It is also possible that magic and psionic are of the same thing, just interpreted as different belief systems. I think that a psionicist, who probably was born only one type of power (e.g., pyrokinesis) can "learn" other powers like telekinesis or telepathy.
    Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

    "My philosophy is 'you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way.'"
    -- Monte Cook

    "Min/Maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game: they're problems with the players."
    -- excerpt from Guardians of Order's Role-Playing Game Manifesto

    A GENERATION KIKAIDA fan

    DISCLAIMER: I Am Not A Lawyer

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by REG View Post
    I think that a psionicist, who probably was born only one type of power (e.g., pyrokinesis) can "learn" other powers like telekinesis or telepathy.
    I don't know, that sounds like saying "I have an arm, and that means I can learn to grow new feet."
    Portfolio | Blog Currently Running: Call of Cthulhu, Star Trek GUMSHOE Currently Playing: DramaSystem, Swords & Wizardry

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    fringes of civillization
    Posts
    903
    While the Force and Psi-phenomena seem similar, and there are areas where they overlap (tk, telepathy etc.), imho the mechanics of how they work are very different.
    With Psionics, the mind is able to manipulate the outside world. Kes concentrates on a pitcher of water, and she is able to move the object through the air to her. Her mind moves the object.
    With the force, the mind of the force user manipulates the ambient Force that "surrounds" and "binds things together". When Obi-Wan wants to move a pitcher of water, he reaches out through the force, moving the object. He manipulates the force, and the force moves the object.

    Another way of thinking of it in this scenerio is to think of TK as, well Telekinetics, and the Force as something akin to Magnetism: Magneto needs to manipulate the Earth's magnetic Field to move objects.

    Now, as to how to describe the Force, in trek terms, I'm not sure that can work. Or, you could call it a "quantumly focused energy field with dualistic tendencies"?
    _________________
    "Yes, it's the Apocalypse alright. I always thought I'd have a hand in it"
    Professor Farnsworth

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Kaunakakai, Molokai, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    4,020
    Quote Originally Posted by The Tatterdemalion King View Post
    I don't know, that sounds like saying "I have an arm, and that means I can learn to grow new feet."
    I don't view powers --- be it magic or psionic -- as being an appendage, unless it was previously untapped or dormant.

    So the difference between the two is that one is learned/schooled (like a method) and the other is inherent (like eating or breathing)?
    Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

    "My philosophy is 'you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way.'"
    -- Monte Cook

    "Min/Maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game: they're problems with the players."
    -- excerpt from Guardians of Order's Role-Playing Game Manifesto

    A GENERATION KIKAIDA fan

    DISCLAIMER: I Am Not A Lawyer

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Kaunakakai, Molokai, Hawaii, USA
    Posts
    4,020
    Quote Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
    Now, as to how to describe the Force, in trek terms, I'm not sure that can work. Or, you could call it a "quantumly focused energy field with dualistic tendencies"?
    Is that like trying to scientifically define the term "magic"?
    Anyhoo, just some random thoughts...

    "My philosophy is 'you don't need me to tell you how to play -- I'll just provide some rules and ideas to use and get out of your way.'"
    -- Monte Cook

    "Min/Maxing and munchkinism aren't problems with the game: they're problems with the players."
    -- excerpt from Guardians of Order's Role-Playing Game Manifesto

    A GENERATION KIKAIDA fan

    DISCLAIMER: I Am Not A Lawyer

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    3,490
    Tricky, I think you're making the obvious and common mistake of mistaking the map for the road. The metaphor is not the reality, it's just a symbolic way of visualising the reality. It's kinda like the aether scientists used to believe in. It's not real, but was the best they could come up with to describe things...

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by REG View Post
    I don't view powers --- be it magic or psionic -- as being an appendage, unless it was previously untapped or dormant.

    So the difference between the two is that one is learned/schooled (like a method) and the other is inherent (like eating or breathing)?
    Eating and breathing require specialized biological apparatuses. I'm saying that what differentiates 'psionics' from, say, 'psychic powers' or magical abilities is that the first function relies on a biological system or something expressible in reference to our experiences of a physical process, as opposed to something expressible in reference to a cosmology of philosophical idealism for psychic powers or transcendent esoteric or metaphorical relationships for magic. In short, it comes down to worldview.

    Splitting hairs, I know, but I'm a card-carrying Fortean. : P
    Portfolio | Blog Currently Running: Call of Cthulhu, Star Trek GUMSHOE Currently Playing: DramaSystem, Swords & Wizardry

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by REG View Post
    Is that like trying to scientifically define the term "magic"?
    Actually, most Western esoterica since the Renaissance includes fairly detailed attempts to do just that, usually predicated upon assumptions that most people would not necessarily include within the realm of scientific inquiry.
    Portfolio | Blog Currently Running: Call of Cthulhu, Star Trek GUMSHOE Currently Playing: DramaSystem, Swords & Wizardry

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •