Star Trek XI discussion [Spoiler]

[Kirk Johnson-Weider]

Okay this article is worth a read - mainly as it puts quibblers like me in their place.

[Tobian]

Actually I completelly disagree with most people's opinions of the way the test scene was handled, I absolutely loved it.

And yes I agree Dan, I completelly took it that way, and moreso in painting him doing it this way explains WHY he cheated, BECAUSE of his contempt for the point of the test: He was making a POINT of saying it was a stupid exercise, NOT 'cheating' to graduate the academy. Having failed a few driving tests, I resent the way in which they seem specifically designed to MAKE you fail, and if I had spare money I might like to be able to treat the driving test with the contempt that Kirk treated Spock and the examiners!

Kirk Johnson-Weider, nice explanations and a detailed breakdown of why you FELT it didn't work. However, having read your version of it, I think it sounds as dull as dishwater. Kirk is a pure egotist, he was in TOS, he was in the movies, and his character was in this film entirely consistent with everything we've seen before, even moreso. If, for example you contrast this with the image of Picard at the academy its a perfect mirror too it. Picard was a complete egotist, brash, loud, chasing after the ladies. Exactly like Kirk, and Picard matured into a MUCH more serious officer than Kirk ever did! Kirk in this movie is young, and young starfleet officers are exactly as they are portrayed here even in the TNG era, as was seen in TNG, DS9 and Voyager.

I can appreciate the opinions of those who were pure children of the TNG generation, who look back on TOS as an acronism utterly unconnected to the world of TNG, but from the TOS POV it's quite odd that it seems to be placed on some sort of rose-tinted-pedestal of perfection. Yeah maybe this film should have had some more subtle alagories like 'space hippies' or 'half black half white people' or 'space mobsters from the 20's'. I just seem to be seeing all of this through a different lens, where I am putting 'enjoyment of the film' lens in front of the 'nitpicking it to death' lens

[Cut]

Thanks a lot, Kirk Johnson-Weider, for explaining thoroughly why I felt uncomfortable with the utopia (or lack thereof) as presented in this movie.

Indeed. You put your finger (or better words) on something that I couldn't put down myself just yet.

By the way, the apple during the Kobayashi was something else I found disturbing. I was happy to see the Kobayashi Maru test being featured, and I was beginning to look forward to how it would be handled. But the way Kirk acted during the test disappointed me a great deal; it's one thing to cheat and another to show everyone you're cheating. Or it should have been made clearer later on that Kirk's main drive was to show that he could hack into the simulation's computer, not just to pass the test.

That is something that I forgot to mention above. I always envisioned Kirk to beat 'the real thing', fighting a brave battle, just with the small change, that he had implemented some kind of change, that enabled him to win. Not forced him to win. That part with the apple wasn't working for the Trekkies in the audience close to me. But there was a lot of laughter. There was a lot of laughter during the movie, I remember.

BTW, I voted "Something completely different" on the poll, because there wasn't a "Definitely not Star Trek" option (or harsher).

That's true.

I had not wanted the movie to fail, therefore I didn't include the option "Star Trek sucks"

[C5]

I just seem to be seeing all of this through a different lens, where I am putting 'enjoyment of the film' lens in front of the 'nitpicking it to death' lens

You know, what makes me really wonder is that this is precisely what I was trying to do (and did) for the last Trek series. I was really irked when I saw people nitpicking the smallest things in Enterprise and rule for instance that an episode, no, the entire series was bad because Earth and Q'onos were said to be 1 light year away (and there have been such statements...)

So now I find myself being the nitpicker, and it's a strange (and not very enjoyable) feeling, especially now that the majority seems to have laid aside nitpicking to enjoy the story. Kinda ironic, actually. But still sad (for me anyway).
I can't help thinking though that all this is partly due to the fact that I came to Star Trek because of TNG, and that TOS never held that nostalgia value for me.
Nevertheless, when I read, on a French forum, posts saying "Hey, it was a fun action movie that did not ask to think too much, unlike all those snotty Sci-Fi novels or the old series", I can't help wondering when, exactly, did I loose my sanity.

And I really should stop rambling now...

[Dan Stack]

[Moderator Hat On]
It's not been too bad in here at all but just wanted to send out a pre-emptive reminder to keep it civilized in here.
[Moderator Hat Off]


My non-moderator advice is that it is pretty unlikely that anyone will change anyone else's view of the film. That's fine and opinions are still welcome. Learning why someone liked/disliked something you disliked/liked can be quite educational (and I say that without any sarcasm).

[C5]

I'm sorry if I appeared uncivil at some point, this is really not my intent, and I apologize if I did. I am interested in this discussion, and I appreciate that it has so far not shown any sign (as far as I was aware of) of degenerating.

It's been a while since I posted on this forum, and as a result, my English has become a bit shakier, so I may have appeared harsher than I intended.

[Cut]

I am with C5 and his last post. ehem, this post, as C5 had posted again in the meantime

You know, what makes me really wonder is that this is precisely what I was trying to do (and did) for the last Trek series. I was really irked when I saw people nitpicking the smallest things in Enterprise and rule for instance that an episode, no, the entire series was bad because Earth and Q'onos were said to be 1 light year away (and there have been such statements...)

So now I find myself being the nitpicker, and it's a strange (and not very enjoyable) feeling, especially now that the majority seems to have laid aside nitpicking to enjoy the story. Kinda ironic, actually. But still sad (for me anyway).
I can't help thinking though that all this is partly due to the fact that I came to Star Trek because of TNG, and that TOS never held that nostalgia value for me.
Nevertheless, when I read, on a French forum, posts saying "Hey, it was a fun action movie that did not ask to think too much, unlike all those snotty Sci-Fi novels or the old series", I can't help wondering when, exactly, did I loose my sanity.

And I really should stop rambling now...

I have never been the nitpicker. Coming to be a real Star Trek fan via TNG (I know and ocasionally had watched TOS before, but came into the fold with Picard & Co) I was very open to all things of newer Star Trek.

Honestly, after having been called a thick headed jerk, nerd with a stick in his ass, and other not nice things on a german website for stating my dislike with some aspects of the new movie, I am rather sad with the development.

And it makes me sad, that so few people actually seem to see the problem that people like C5 and I seem to have with the new adaption of Star Trek. I thought Star Trek fans would be tolerant and interested to see the others point of view and liked about Star Trek, that it was not the magical solution of every problem to face it at gunpoint. But these days, it has just to be fast-paced-action all over the run. That makes me sad...

[Tobian]

Which is why I made a point about arguing about subjectivity, subjective facts are specifically tainted by your own bias, by definition of the word. You cannot argue that someone likes or does not like something, it's an utterly pointless argument, so I'm not going to engage in that LOL. Individual points I can address, but I can't force someone to like something

Also I hope I haven't offended anyone also, and I certainly wouldn't call anyone names because they don't share my likes or dislikes! Ok maybe a little

[Cut]

Also I hope I haven't offended anyone also, and I certainly wouldn't call anyone names because they don't share my likes or dislikes! Ok maybe a little

No, you didn't.

And don't we all

[Tobian]

And it makes me sad, that so few people actually seem to see the problem that people like C5 and I seem to have with the new adaption of Star Trek. I thought Star Trek fans would be tolerant and interested to see the others point of view and liked about Star Trek, that it was not the magical solution of every problem to face it at gunpoint. But these days, it has just to be fast-paced-action all over the run. That makes me sad...

No, you are making an assumption that we can't see your points. I can read just fine, and I have above average intelligence :P it's just subjectively, I didn't let those facts spoil the movie for me. I saw dozens of things which I could nitpick about the movie, I am a nitpicker, ask any of my friends!!! But this is the thing: When it comes to your feelings for someone or something you can love it/them DESPITE their flaws, or Hate it/them BECAUSE of their flaws... Both value judgements still acknowledge there are flaws!

You can usually shout until you are blue in the face about why you like/dislike something, and why other should share your opinion, however not only can you not TELL someone what their opinion be, it usually polarises their opinion further because they become more stubborn, as you admit to yourself LOL.

Express your opinion, list your explanations, but don't expect people to share it, or assume they are stupid and can't read what you wrote. That way leads to the dark side, thread closures and bannings

[Kirk Johnson-Weider]

I think this is just one of those situations where a small minority were turned off by the decision of the franchise to jettison certain elements for mass appeal. There is no denying that certain elements were jettisoned and one of them was the more intellectual side of Trek.

It was the same with Phantom Menace, which I disliked for jettisoning some elements of the original trilogy, but which brought in a new generation of Star Wars fans and did spawn two better movies down the road. I guess if Star Trek's sequels are improvements then I might get back on board. However, I think judging by comments here and elsewhere that the intellectualism of Star Trek is blamed for its past failures and has been chucked out the window. It is probably a reasonable conclusion.

Star Trek has tried too hard sometimes to be thoughtful (often downright preachy) when it probably should just be focused on the action and maybe try to sneak a thought or two in on the sly. I just need to approach the Star Trek movie like the Mummy series or other light and fluffy action/adventure which I do enjoy and realize that this is just how it will be till the next reboot in probably 20 years.

I mean regardless, this is the new Star Trek. Those of us who complain just have to accept that Pine and Quinto will be Kirk and Spock for a new generation and that J.J. Abrams is the new Roddenberry.

[Cut]

Express your opinion, list your explanations, but don't expect people to share it, or assume they are stupid and can't read what you wrote. That way leads to the dark side, thread closures and bannings

OMG where did that come from?

I never ever said no one understood me. I never doubted anyones intelligence. Good to make these post, as it gives me thge opportunity to set this straight.

I hope for people to share my oppinion and then, when they don't; I don't lecture them, I don't hate them, I might even try to understand them.

But I still feel the way I feel.

[Dan Stack]

[Moderator hat on]
No one's been naughty. These forums tend to be pretty civil actually. I waded into trekbbs last night and saw some pretty nasty sniping so just wanted to be a little pre-emptive.

[Moderator hat off]

And no fear of anyone's use of English either. Heck I think I've posted more this year so far than I have the past two! Like the franchise, I went into Trek hibernation as well.

[Tobian]

I was just rehearsing my prejudices there a little, but Cut you were implying that we didn't 'get' you when in fact, we did. it all sounds a little 'victimisation complex' to me But I wasn't just speaking to you there, but in a broad sense.

I am fully conversant in trekbobabble, but sometimes it's just too much. If you are relying on it to prop up poor characterisations or be the centre of the plot then you have failed, and that's got more to do with poor storytelling ability then a 'not getting the intellectualism'. Sometimes Trek is intelligent, and sometimes it's reels of mindless pseudo-intellectual drivel, to disguise a plot hole or quite obvious deus ex machina paradoxes to neatly wrap up a morality ark, which just smells of lazy writing, and not anything clever. However as I have previously said I still loved it despite those flaws!

I didn't feel this was especially dumbed down, and, yes as the films go on it might get more complex, but it will lose much of it's momentum if it drifts back into pure Trek-tropes. A completelly fresh direction might be just what Trek needs, and if nothing else it might be a fresh set of stories which get repeated once a season, with a thinly veiled disguise that it's not the same plot

[Cut]

I was just rehearsing my prejudices there a little, but Cut you were implying that we didn't 'get' you when in fact, we did. it all sounds a little 'victimisation complex' to me But I wasn't just speaking to you there, but in a broad sense.

Yeah, what I meant was, that I wasn't sure, if I could transport what I wanted to say right. I have a difficult time grasping that what it is that I 'feel'. I feel kind of much right now. Hm...should not let girlfriend know I did think more about fictional universe than her today....anyway: I have problems understanding myself and then in german. Transporting that in english, usually something I am rather confident of doing, is eluding me a bit.

That's what I meant. I never wanted to doubt anyone's brains

But I wasn't just speaking to you there, but in a broad sense.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Tobian;172841]
Oh and yes: I tend to take things personally That's again my bad